I know I'm rezzing a dead thread, but I thought this would be good for players who want to understand the answer to "Which is better Power or Crit?" and why the answer is: It depends. For the purposes of this example I'm going to dramatically oversimplify the SWTOR combat model and though the real math and formulas have been done much better elsewhere we're going to pretend that the following is True: Base Damage = Damage done per hit Power = directly adds Bonus Damage to Base Damage Crit = Gives you X chance to get a Critical Hit which does 50% more Damage over Base Now let's say that our Base Damage is 100 and you have the choice of getting a mod that gives you either 100 Power or 50% Crit, which is better? If you take the Power you get (100 Base Damage + 100 Bonus Damage) which brings you to 200 Damage per hit. If you take the Crit you get 100 Base Damage (50% of the time) + 150 Crit Damage (the other 50% of the time) which ends up being an average of 125 Damage per hit. So, if your Base Damage is 100 - the Power nets you a 100% damage increase, while the Crit only gets you a 25% increase - so the Power is clearly better. BUT - what if your Base Damage is 1000? Then taking the 100 Power (1000 Base Dmg + 100 Bonus Dmg) would bring you to 1100 Damage per Hit. However, taking the Crit would now get you 1000 Base Dmg (50% of the time) + 1500 Crit Dmg (the other 50%) for an average of 1250 Damage per Hit. So, when your Base Damage is 1000 - the same Power mod only nets you a 10% increase, while the same Crit mod remains a 25% increase - so in this case the Crit is clearly better. So, as you observe this super-oversimplified comparison of +100 Power vs +50% Crit from 0 Base Damage up to 1000, in the beginning Power is the clearly better choice. But at a certain point in the curve (@400 Base Damage to be specific), Crit overtakes Power in overall effectiveness. And the degree to which Crit becomes more effective is even more pronounced the further on up we go. At 10000 Base Damage the Power mod is only getting us a 1% increase while the Crit is still bringing in a 25% increase, so its 25X better at that point. This is the "additive" vs "multiplicative" thing at work. The all inclusive "real math" is way,way more complex with DR, class abilities, buffs, etc., but its the same idea underneath. TLDR - According to current DPS theorycrafting, in SWTOR 4.0 the pools of Mastery and Power stats on the endgame gear are so large that we're at the place where it's more advantageous to add Crit vs Power/Mastery point per point. And it's even better to add all 3 tertiary stats Crit, Acc, & Alac (in proper proportions) than 1 stat alone.

I can see it now: "...it's really very much the answer for all specs - some people "get it" and play it to its potential, and some people don't... (Infiltration) should epitomize "hit-and-run" and "lone wolf" gameplay... (Infiltration) is meant to be a high burst, high mobility, shutdown spec. When played properly, they provide some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game. However, (Infiltration) is not a great partner... If you like (Infiltration) and you want to pull it off, my suggestion is that you pick your fights and plan ahead, but I'd also warn that (Infiltration) is a spec of extremes - I would not describe it as "well-rounded." (that's what we got the 1st time we asked at least) In Summary, Infiltration is a "Lone Wolf" spec of extremes. Why did you bring the "Lone Wolf" to an 8/16 man party? It's like bringing a Knife to a Gun(slinger) fight.

Ok, so my last question: Why is it that a guy who likes the game and math can provide acknowledgement of an issue (LS rotation parses lower), the math that backs up the claim, and a reasonable resolution to the issue all in a few hours, while our "paid" combat team can't even seem to get to acknowledgement in 5 months time? Also, did you guys mention that Shadow Tanks were Spiky at one point? We're in line behind you then, I suppose.

Just tell them that you're the Single Target expert without expertise, and while you would use Lacerate on the Snipers... Death from Above & Orbital Strike means Vanguards + Slingers get up there, now! (Which means more fun slapping Thrasher around and dropping Circles of Fire on the MT for you)

I guess a better question for the Math Guy is: What would you retune Low Slash's Force cost be to make it equitable in the efficiency department?

Cool, I guess 40% worse just isn't as bad as it sounds on paper then - lol. Out of curiousity, how would it LS+CS stack up against CS+CS since I'm thinking that "Retuned" it should be used in place of a "filler" CS (hence the 25 cost suggestion). While the +Force SaberStrike is going to compare very well to anything regarding efficiency, you have to think that LS was intended to be used more than it is.

Well, I'm going to assume that you're aware that after placing 2 initial stacks of CS/VS, that you only really need to hit 1 CS/VS every 10 seconds to maintain the 2 stack Clairvoiance/Voltage buff portion since they don't get consumed but rather "time out" if not refreshed within 10 secs. CS/VS often gets used more often anyhow as "filler", but the minimum necessary would be every 10 secs. If you were referring to building the 2x Circling Shadows/Induction Stacks necessary to use the next Project/Shock with the best efficiency, then remember that a SS/Maul itself builds a stack as in this regard serves as a replacement for CS/VS so long as you have used it within the last 10 secs as stated previously (similar to in execute phase where you replace a CS with Spinning Strike/Assassinate). So both Low Slash+Shadow Strike = 1 Stack and CS+Saber Strike = 1 Stack and either way you were going to have to use 1 more CS at one point in the next 10 secs. Also, did you account for the "auto Sh.Strike buff" on the LS=SS combo? If you already accounted for this in you math that's cool, it's kind of inconsequential anyhow, I only ask because the correct math should give a very similar conclusion to what Inf/Dec players have seen in parsing: it should come out saying basically the same thing but with less slant towards Not using Low Slash. The LS rotation is not flat out unusable, it's just not as efficient. In real boss parses LS rotation comes within 90%-95% of the susutained DPS output of not using it, with the caveat that it is actually "good to use" if there is a 2x damage window (Kephess, Kell Dragon), or if you know that blowing all your force is OK, because you have a "hard stop" coming soon that will replenish you anyhow (Titan rocks). All and all, because LS rotation actually provides better "Burst Window" DPS, and the only thing keeping us from using it is the force drain from using it as sustained. This could be allieviated with a minor tweak to the cost, 25 force would basically make it a replacement for a "filler" CS, giving us better dmg overall, without the force drain drawback.

Looks good KBN - thank you for taking the reigns btw. All I might add is a specific mention of "Low Slash & the 2nd SS/Maul proc not being used in PvE due to force cost" in the PvE DPS question when on the subject of Infiltration/Deception issues. At 2.0's launch, it looked as if the Devs did put in some work to attempt to finally give our talented ability Low Slash a use in PvE Boss encounters, by attaching a 2nd SS/Maul proc to it on a separate 9s ICD. It looked like a promising way to both increase our DPS and add some deeper gameplay by ideally managing the 2 procs along with everything else. Unfortunately, because of the prohibitive the force cost of Low Slash, it is not a part of the ideal sustained rotation for Infiltration/Deception. I can't see this as anything but an oversight, because I can't see how you would put in the time and effort to design a 2nd proc of SS/Maul only to let it "wither on the vine". It would be like Combat/Carnage not using the Hand of Justice/Slaughter + Execute proc at all in PvE because it cost too much focus/rage to sustain. Imagine if they simply tuned Low Slash to 25 force and appropriately lowered it's base damage to compensate (in PvE we just want the 2nd SS/Maul proc, the LS dmg and mezz are throwaways). That change would probably make including Low Slash the ideal PvE rotation worthwhile, rewarding deeper gameplay by increasing overall DPS slightly. Meanwhile, it would have next to no effect on PvP - which is likely the #1 reason the Devs hesitate to buff Infilitration/Deception.

WHUUUT!?! We're all only putting up with this nonsense for each other... It's so sad... we need therapy. /grouphug

And the +Main Stat proc relics deserve a look too. Good thing we can "rent" them for a few hours at a time now.

Depends a little on how much you want to micromanage. The Internal/Elemental Force Damage proc relic is good for when you just want an "equip and forget" damage boost without paying much attention to it (like SA). Internal bc we don't have the Armor Pen to take full advantage of the Kinetic one, and Force Damage not Tech, to take advantage of your much higher Force Crit %. (Edit: The Dark Radiance relic from Arkanian Tier on up to Kell "says" it's Internal Force Damage, but the damage type on the tooltip is inconsistent on some of the relics between tiers - so just read the tooltips before you buy). That said, IF you know the fights very well and manage your CDs well, you can actually squeeze more performance out of the Boundless Ages relic. If you can use it's 30s power boosts at optimal times (with other offensive CDs and an uninterrupted 30s damage window), and have it cooling down when you can't do much damage anyhow (sitting behind a rock at Titan 6, waiting out immunity shields, etc.) - then it turns out to be more effective than the proc damage relic (which relies on 100% uptime to pull slightly ahead in overall dmg). While 100% uptime is guaranteed on the combat dummy, it's pretty rare on most newer content. PS - It might be worth it to save up some PvP comms for the new Obroan PvP SA relic in case 2.4 goes live as is, especially if double stacking them in PvE is allowed again: "...looking at the relics on the PvP vendor it seems that the Obroan SA relic gives 625 power and is on a 20 second lockout. The Kell Dragon SA relic gives 595 power and is on a 20 second lockout..."

Yeah, cause 8 weeks of farming the same zone (16 for relics /cry), is just not enough fun. (And we get to do it all over again so very soon... at least it's not TFB for a 4th time. )

I always thought it was kind of rough of BW to hand players Underworld gear with poorly itemized mods/enhs that you had to swap out repeatedly to get BiS to begin with. Here though, the alacrity enhancements aren't just non-ideal, they actually hurt your DPS, lol. Guess its better than the Survivor gear coming with alacrity though: faster taunts anyone?

Even if some math equation somewhere says so, alacrity is detrimental to Infiltration because the pivotal Shadow Technique proc is on a fixed 4.5 sec ICD which is unaffected by alacrity even though your GCD is. With NO alacrity you at least have a chance of ideally getting a proc every 3 globals (4.5s), but if alacrity speeds up your GCD at all, then the proc will only have a chance of occurring every 4th global if you're pushing APM to the edge. Ex. If your GCD was 1.49s due to alacrity, then after 3 GCDs you are at t = 4.47s and Shadow Technique's ICD will block any chance of getting another proc on your next move. Your next opportunity to proc becomes available at t = 5.96s. Repeating that pattern over the course of a long fight leads to less total Shadow Tech procs, breaching shadows, and 3 stack breaches - which will offset any DPS gained by the alacrity's very slight boost to APM and force regen. So with alacrity you can reduce the chance of Shadow Technique proccing ideally, by moving the GCD out of sync with its fixed 4.5s ICD - or you can not queue your next move and slow down your inputs to 1.5s avg to compensate, which kind of defeats the purpose of alacrity. So, yeah - alacrity... just say no.

C'mon now, this is a bold-faced lie. They have consistently found a way to buff the FOTM (or is it FOTY now) classes. And you must know that the Marauder QoL buffs and the lack of offensive CDs for Snipers are priority fixes that simply must be addressed lest the entire game remain broken for longer than necessary. If you think about the big picture though, it all makes sense: there are too many ACs and specs to balance properly, and with the current skeleton crew working diligently at their current pace... Yeah, its so not happening. So, if you just let all the underperforming specs simply wither and die, then you can pare things down and concentrate on the AC's you want to continue to support moving forward.. It will be a ton easier to balance both PvE content and PvP arenas if you know all that's left to work with is Jugg tanks, Mara/Sniper DPS, and Op healers.