Depending on your interpretation of Revan's fall/sacrifice, he could have followed a similar philosophy. This would require following Traya's (KOTOR II) explanation of his character and assuming the historian (SWTOR) was inaccurate or mistaken - which is an entirely valid, if optimistic, reading of the events. I'm sure there are other Sith who fall into this category but my knowledge of the EU isn't particularly vast. That aside, I think it is entirely possible to do bad things for the right reasons. The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions after all. However the Sith are almost universally "evil" by many (modern day Western) standards; they are not the 'good guys', but they can be anti-heroes. Can they be selfless? Maybe. Probably. Some may believe they're serving the greater good; that the harm they inflict pales in comparison to the alternative - the lesser of two evils. Whether or not that is morally justifiable is an entirely different, far less clean cut matter; a utilitarian would argue that yes, it can be if the result benefits a greater number than it harms - by contrast a deontologist would argue that the Sith have failed in their ethical duties and thus are morally corrupt.

Think more abstract. The story isn't that "the Jedi killed xx# of [insert enemy] on his way to [insert location] to do [insert stuff]", nor is it "the Jedi went out of her/his way to do a quest to kill xx# of [insert enemy]". It may however be "on the Jedi's way to [insert location] to do [insert stuff] (s)he met opposition in the form of [insert enemy]". The form of opposition, due to limited game mechanics, is almost always displayed as combat with a few notable exceptions of stealth or de-aggroing by running far enough away. But also plausible in game mechanics is 50+ Jedi, who have all undergone the same main quest-line and thus have all somehow managed to kill the same notable named enemies, slaughtering countless never ending respawning waves of enemies in the lower bowels of Coruscant, which isn't so unlikely now it has by official galactic decree been turned into an 'achievement'. By the same rules a Jedi Shadow is capable of killing the bare minimum of mobs required for main quest objectives and stealthing past every enemy/side quest in game, assuming they can find another method of levelling. Simply put, I wouldn't consider the placement or classic MMO nature of mobs a deciding factor in an analysis of nature of Jedi or Sith organizations/individuals, or indeed any mechanical element of the game at all. Story content may prove a little more persuasive.

Cheers! Loving the thread, was a great idea. From an omniscient point of view, no; definitely not. But were I a Jedi at the time of the Mandalorian Wars, with no knowledge of what the future holds, hell yes. Given that the first time in SW:TOR I believed we might actually defeat the Emperor (playing JK 1st playthrough) was during Revan's speech post-Jedi Prisoner, I'd say he is pretty charismatic and I'd have certainly believed in the "Jedi should act now to save the Republic from the Mandalorians" cause. Malachor would definitely be one nasty surprise and wake up call.

[*]Revan or Meetra? Revan. [*] If you could belong to any Era of Jedi/Sith orders, which would you belong to and why? Probably the New Jedi Order, as shown in the Jedi Academy games. It had a more moderate outlook on many of the ideals the Golden Era held to, which I think was an improvement. [*]If you could belong to any Non-Force Sensitive order, which'd you pick and why.... And yes, simply being a smuggler counts The Rebel Alliance. Down with the oppressive Empire. [*]If you could have ONE ship, which'd you pick? Any class. XS Stock Light Freighter. [*]Favorite Star wars animal? Umm. Okay, stuck, will edit in later. [*]Favorite Character? Revan. [*]Favorite Jedi? Obi-Wan Kenobi. [*]Favorite Sith? Darth Traya. [*] Favorite Non-Force dude? HK-47. If droids aren't allowed, Han Solo. [*] If you could change one thing in Galactic History, what would you change? Anakin disobeying Mace Windu's orders to stay at the Jedi Temple. Palpatine would have died and Order 66 would never of occurred, leading to a stable Republic, once the final skirmishes of the Clone Wars came to an end. [*] If Malgus' Sith Empire had survived the False Emperor storyline, what do you think would have happened? Would he have won the war? Would you have joined him? Malgus' reforms would have come too quickly, leading to a fractured and split Empire. One the Republic would have an easier time beating. Were the choice between Malgus and Vitiate, the former would have my (Sith?) allegiance, but with Vitiate gone and Marr as a suitable replacement the latter would've gotten my vote. Unless a suitable agreement could be reached between the two. [*] Do you think Darth was originally intended to be Darth Vader's first name? (always bugged me) Never really considered it, although now you mention it, when Obi-Wan calls him Darth it does seem like he's being a tad cheeky, such as calling an enemy by their first name. Maybe that is just me, though. [*] Which blaster would you wield, if you did? Or you A Vibroblades guy? Only Mandalorian Heavy Blaster Pistols can tear holes in the hulls of starships! And you're not going to dispute that claim, are you? [*] Pre-TPM or Post ROTJ? Pre-TPM. [*]Favorite Clone Wars episode. Watched only a few. The one with Duchess Satine's death was both saddening to the Obi-Wan empathist (should be a word), but gladdening to the Mandalorian conservative. [*]Your favorite Star Wars scene. "If so powerful you are, why leave?" [*]Funniest moment. Umm. "Never tell me the odds!"? Don't know, quite a few humorous moments - and pretty sure at least a few were intentional, thankfully. [*]Saddest moment "You were supposed to be the chosen one!" [*]Favorite quote "Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you... not condemn you." [*]Favourite Actor Alec Guinness or Harrison Ford. [*]Favourite Voice Actor Frank Oz. [*]Favourite Lightsaber Duel Probably actually the Hope cinematic trailer, as brief as that duel is. [*]Favourite Lightsaber Hilt Ven Zallow's lightsaber is very pretty. [*]You can master any one Force power or technique, which would you pick? Severe Force. It'd be the great equalizer in any engagement. [*] If not Jedi or Sith, which Order of Force users would you join? Guessing the Revanchist movement doesn't count here? In which case, probably the Kilian Rangers- although really it'd be Jedi, Grey Jedi (again not an Order) or unaligned. [[*] What is your favorite music track from the movies? Duel of the Fates. [[*]If you were part of the Star Wars universe, who would you want as a rival and why? Are we talking friendly competition or fight-or-die nemesis? If the former, someone like Kira Carson; some friendly trash talk with her would be fun! If we're talking more serious enemies, probably an Inquisitor, or maybe Vader himself (may as well aim high); someone that'd win a straight up engagement and has plenty of underlings to send your way, a real challenge. [[*] If you were part of the Star Wars universe, who would you want as an ally and why? HK-47 or R2. I mean seriously, that little guy is really under appreciated and the first one is both ****** and walking entertainment.

1)Jedi or Sith? Jedi. But probably one that remains fairly distanced from the Order, due to philosophical disagreement (for example, the perceived detrimental effects of love). 2) Favorite Worlds? Tython, Kashyyyk and Nar Shaddaa. 3) Type of lightsaber, Lightsaber color and fighting style? A single, single bladed purple or cyan crystal. Predominantly Djem So, although a variant with some Soresu and Ataru to enhance mobility and speed, at the cost of some dominance. Would be interested in Vaapad, but tutoring in it is somewhat unlikely - especially given the aforementioned philosophical distance from the Order. 4)Favorite Species? Echani, although Zeltron and Miraluka are both awesome. 5)Favorite vehicle? XS Stock Light Freighter. 6)If you were a Jedi which master would you want? Quinlan Vos. Seems like he'd be a down to earth, practical teacher with similar differences of opinion to the Order. Who knows, maybe access to Vaapad wouldn't be so impossible. 7)If you were a Sith which master would you want? Revan or Traya. They're two of the few Sith that I feel didn't let the Darkside master them completely, but instead sought to use it for their own purposes. 8)If you were a Sith, then what would your "Darth" Name Be? Malvirtus. A combination of Mal and Virtus, latin for bad and strength of courage/virtue. Although that'd end up with 'Dark Bad Virtue', which seems silly. Mhmm. 9)Favorite Film? Tough call. Rather enjoyed Return of the Jedi. 10)Least favorite film? Attack of the Clones, for the horrible romance and the tainting of the iconic character Anakin/Vader. 11)If you could write your own Star Wars novel, what would it be about? Probably a survivor of Order 66, and how they'd have to deal with adapting to a world without Jedi. They'd eventually be forced to take up their lightsaber again, but I think it'd be interesting with expressing (for a while) the incredible fallout and character development they'd have to go through, just to survive after the world they knew was torn asunder. 12)Which film has your favorite soundtrack? Another fan of The Phantom Menace's Duel of the Fates. 13)Do you collect figures? Nope. I'm an avid fan of the table top RPG games as well as the electronic ones, though. Hey, maybe that could be another question for you to ask! Just about to start my first game in Edge of an Empire by Fantasy Flight. 14)In your opinion, what is the best thing about the EU? To be honest I've read less EU than I'd like, but most of what I've read was good and was from the Old Republic era. 15)In your opinion, what are the worst things about the EU? Not a fan of what little post-RotJ stuff I've read (as little as it is), and what I've heard of it. 16)What Does Star Wars mean to you? The same as most Fantasy. In fact it is very typical of the genre in terms of story purposes, albeit with a strong focus on redemption. It provides a way of exploring concepts, ideals and emotions and their consequences.

Slightly side-tracked thoughtline: has anyone actually come up with a reasonable explanation of Grevious' vastly different levels of competency shown throughout the Clone Wars cartoons (the original vs the new series')? The weakened performance during the movies is understandable given Windu had crushed the droids chest via the Force, but presumably the new Clone Wars series occurs before the attack on Coruscant and opening of RotS. Admittedly I've watched little of the new cartoon series, but it strikes me as silly to write off Shaak Ti's otherwise impressive displays of skill based on the fact she was defeated by heightened General Grevious, who was described as a flawless tactician and was a combatant more than capable of not only taking on, but defeating multiple Jedi (including some Council members) simultaneously; especially when the comparison involves a battle against a noticeably less threatening envisioning of the character. I understand that 'canon is canon', and so the events of the original clone wars series are still factual, but by that rule Shaak Ti was also an incredibly impressive duellist capable of defeating dozens of MagnaGuard simultaneously, whereas in the movies saber duellists like Obi-Wan and Anakin (both ranked higher in these lists) were caught up quite a while with but a few.

Darth Traya and the other real canon characters most certainly do have stats, her own are found on page 158- although unfortunately I see little reference to her powers in the bio on the same page, merely a brief recounting of her history up to her demise at the hands of the exile. Are you looking elsewhere? It has been a long time since I've read these books (until today), and I may be missing something; although pretty sure the listed page is the only page dedicated to Darth Traya, it could be that info on her is scattered throughout the other sections. Fun system Saga, unfortunately scarcely played and the one good PbP site I knew died.

Perhaps, but the Mandalore doesn't. He also details a few ideas Revan had about how to limit the influence of a Jedi's "gifts". If you haven't heard the conversation before whilst playing through KotOR II I whole-heartedly recommend youtubing "HK-47, how to kill a Jedi".

Replace Jedi with Mandalorian and you get the same result.

Vitiate's physical form dies. Immediately after the temple starts collapsing. I'm sorry, but it is a pretty big stretch to assume the two are not in some way connected. Especially if the following is true - it's been a while since I played the scene, but Vitiate certainly hadn't backed down: So, Vitiate has suffered the loss of two physical hosts in a fairly short period of time (probably three). Given statements made by the JK storyline writer, he may even be gone for good. It isn't really surprising that after such little time between the end of act III and Makeb that Vitiate has yet to return. How long did it take Sidious to return, having been defeated at the hands of Vader? (Honest question, I do not know; but I highly doubt it was instantaneous). They're good for their time in the same way Satele, Revan, Meetra, Nomi are good for their time; they are names that hold up fairly well over the ages. Sure, they may not be as good as Windu (although that is open to debate), but they have all achieved remarkable things. Feel free to do so. It seems like S_W_LeGenD has, in a few posts, challenged preconceptions that have existed on these forums for a long time (well done!). Despite "anti-Vitiate" or "pro-Sidious" (note the air quotes, I use the terms loosely to give a basic idea as-to what I'm referring too) having challenged someone to present a reasoned, accurate assessment of Vitiate and his power for a long time, it has yet to be countered now it is here. The whole "prequels & NJO are better" thing is followed in an over zealous manner. It may be true as a blanket statement but it is not without exception, in fact it is not uncommon for specific Force users before those times eclipse the majority of those after; Vitiate is one such exception.

The fact he not only survived the loss of a physical body (and has done so more than once), but was able to bring down sections of a temple whilst departing is impressive, and doesn't really fall under "he is weak and unable to do much at all". It might not have been a direct, focused assault but it does show large amounts of power. Also, I don't remember ever "easily" defeating him as the Hero of Tython, in fact that fight was originally so challenging many players had to bring a friend. Game mechanics aside, it is highly doubtful the Hero found the victory at all easy; let us also not forget this is a Jedi more powerful than Satele Shan (by her own admission), the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, and an almost peerless swordsman in the order. The Sith Warrior is also, from what I gather, several notches above the rank and file of the Sith, being powerful/skilled enough to become the Emperor's Wrath. Let us also not forget that against the Hero, Vitiate faced an enemy that excelled where he was weakest (saber combat) and who was well versed in interrupting/interfering with force moves and that was completely immune to mind control due to a Force ghost, and against the Sith Warrior Vitiate was arguably trying to lose. You severely underestimate not only Vitiate, but the opposition he faced.

Actually never seen it taken literally by anyone, Revan fan or not. The quote in question is quite clearly a metaphor.

Think Beni covered most of it better than I could have anyway, so nicely done and thank you! But I would liket to point out that: This is the thing that confuses me. Nothing you have said here really seems to conflict with anything said prior to your 'return to the dark days' in this thread. If anything it reaches relatively similar conclusions many came to both before, and after you began dismissing various traits Revan displays. The main difference has, throughout this discussion, appeared to be precisely what descriptive praise is appropriate. E.g. the difference between "more than capable" and "excellent", the different between being "one of the best lightsaber duelists of that time" and being a "master duellist". This is probably due to the fact you are looking at everyone in the star wars universe for comparison, whereas those that would have dubbed Revan a tactical genius or master swordsman were his peers, and they can only go on people alive during that time for accurate comparison. Think of it this way, any national fencing champion could be referred to as a master duellist, regardless of whether or not they are the international champion or best fencer ever to have lived (which is something we could hardly title accurately). It would seem the bold part of the quote is why this misunderstanding has occurred. You've attempted to balance the view of Revan given in this thread by being equally 'against' as his proponents have been 'for', which has lead to an unnecessarily harsh interpretation.

Quite agree. Actually, Revan's final fall is one thing I found particularly in-character for him, and realistic in a sense. He had at this point been in a three hundred year mental conflict with Vitiate, in which they'd both probed each other for secrets; the Emperor has more than a few dark ones hidden away. It is of no surprise that having gone against the Emperor whilst at the peak of his own power if not physical prime, armed with his most powerful ally and failed so abysmally, losing his ally and friend in the process, that Revan might resort to whatever options he felt were left. The Foundry and the darkside were that option. It is also incredibly suitable that Revan might fail to see past his own options, or seek the help from the Council in the matter; they'd rarely helped him in the past and he had a tendency to go off alone to fight his battles. Revan was still missing large portions of his memory and power during his first imprisonment, it was only when the Exile found him and he was giving back his mask, that his knowledge and thus power was returned to him. He probably was weaker than Scourge and Nyriss until being 'reborn'. He wasn't really in a position to stop the Exile dying, although honestly had their places been reversed during the saber throw incident I doubt he wouldn't have sacrificed her to kill the Emperor. How was he supposed to stop being locked up again? Hell, the fact he not only kept information from Vitiate's mental probing, but also managed to instil enough fear within the Emperor to delay the war 300 years, is incredibly impressive. The Jedi Knight isn't necessarily more powerful than Revan, Meetra or Surik in the Force. What he excels at is light saber combat, which also happens to be the Emperor's weakest combat skill. Given the Jedi Knight was made immune to the Emperor's mind control in a fashion neither Kira (who had blocked out the Emperor before) or Scourge could replicate, he was the perfect candidate to enter into that fight. All he need do was get in close against Vitiate and prevent the latter using any potent Force abilities. It was the will of the Force that the Hero of Tython defeat the Emperor, as foresaw in the vision 300 years earlier.

It was a possibility. Scourge foresees many futures, in some of which they prevail and in the majority of which they all die horrible fates and the Emperor is left to continue on his plan. In every future featuring a certain future Jedi however, the Emperor was bested. Given how Meetra had already sacrificed an opportunity to kill Vitiate, so that she might save Revan instead, Scourge was probably starting to doubt his allies were as committed as he and so (rightly, IMO) betrayed them to ensure he could gain Vitiate's trust and thus influence the future and help the Jedi Knight he foresaw, directing things to one sound, destined outcome.