I wasn't commenting on whether combat logs existed in EQ1 - I was just responding to the post I quoted explaining 'raids' to me by indicating that I was well-versed in raiding. My initial guild in EQ1 that I ran sounds very similar to yours, fewer players trying to do more stuff... the last few years I played that game I moved to a more focused raiding guild. (Order of the Open Hand/Celestial Navigators - Vazelle)

I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent and constructive manner. I am well versed in raiding and what it entails... Ive been raiding since EQ1. I think we just disagree on what is required to make and complete hard encounters. They become inherently less difficult when you expose everything that is happening through a log, IMHO. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

Or - you can go 'old school' and simply figure it out based on the visual/audio cues given and information presented (which is how BW has stated they want their encounters to work). Now, I profess, they may not being doing a good job of presenting those things right now. I don't have a high lvl toon on the PTS to test them and until they do character copies I won't but that IS their stated position. I honestly don't understand the WoW player base mentality (and make no mistake, that is where the bulk of this is coming from) that it is MORE fun to 'figure out' (used loosely) and encounter by looking through a log of the entire thing than it is in working with your teammates, finding out what they were doing and what THEY think is happening and working out a strategy to try based on their input. Is it frustrating not having everything handed to you? Probably. But it is A LOT more rewarding actually figuring out the encounter yourself and what does/doesn't work than having the numbers handed to you. Any sense of accomplishment you feel because you are able to read a log is misplaced/unfounded IMHO. Grats - you were given all the information, can read and crunch numbers... what an asset to the raiding force you are. Once they start requiring combat logs to complete their content they start down the very slippery slope of needing more and more information to compete. They are better off doing what they state their design goal is than caving to the 'more logs' crew.

It's clearly impossible now without extensive logs. Everyone clearing HM/NM currently are using voodoo.

As an 'anti' log person I would have no problem with the option to enable a full real-time log in HM/NM raids only. It is something that would give you something you feel you need to progress (arguments of ACTUALLY needing them to progress aside) and not harm those that aren't doing that level of content. The reality of the situation is that once they are implemented at the tier the stage is set for the cries of "Well - you already let me see it in HM/NM Ops ... really all Ops should have them" followed by "Well - HM FP's are really causing my group to suffer and I can't tell why. The technology exists in-game already.. why not just turn it on for HM FP's?", all the way on down until it exists at all tiers.

Excellent. You will be able to do all of that 'personal growth' stuff with the logs that are being provided in 1.2. You don't need access to my information (or real-time) in order to analyze the stuff you are talking about and, again, you are getting a log for analysis in 1.2. As for the sports analogy - professional sports, as someone else mentioned, have those stats tracked for all the reasons you mentioned. SWTOR isn't a professional sport no matter how much you are and others would like to turn it into one. Once BW starts paying me to raid and play their game we can start having drafts, etc. - until that time please kindly keep this mentality far away from the game.

Training dummy is coming - you will be able to do just that.

The over-riding point about jerks and combat logs isn't that they don't exist without combat logs it's that combat logs give the 'stealth' jerks that might not currently speak up something to point at and voice their opinion. This increases the number of vocal jerks that might not otherwise impact the game. Further, you are getting combat logs in 1.2 anyway - just not in a manner that allows immediate in-game analysis. And even THAT is being somewhat diluted by people making overlay parsers and BW saying they will dump the log to disk more regularly. So you will be able to do all the theory crafting and spec analysis you want. But let's face it...what a lot of the pro log people REALLY want is to be able to judge their fellow players as this never ending thread has reinforced in spades. So, no, you won't be able to judge MY spec or theory craft me out of a group with these logs.

If this is the case then WoW's combat logs are woefully inefficient. I run logs in EQ2 100% of the time - they are always on for me. Through groups, raids, etc. My log which covers 2/19/12 thru 2/26/12 - raiding three nights a week, counting all my groups, etc. is a whopping 85MB. And that includes EVERYTHING that happens - all conversations, spells cast, combat arts used AND everyone else that does those things around me. I can't even begin to imagine why their logs are that size - they would have to be writing stuff in there that is purely taking up space. All I can say is Wow... pun intended.

That is indeed possible. However, when commenting on a thread, especially one that is on its third or fourth iteration, I feel it is incumbent on the individual to at least be informed on the topic - so that is how I approach anyone that responds on the thread... that they at a minimum understand the issue.

Thought - in their defense - from my personal perspective I don't really want the player base making the kinds of design decisions you are mentioning here. The suggestions about colors and relationships are valid things for the community to comment on and request. Unless a skill/stat/mechanic is inherently broken I don't really want you or anyone deciding how the underlying game should be. Their job is the make (and fix) the game - your only requirement should be to play and enjoy the game.

Actually - the jury is still out on whether they are just for you or for your group. It seems we have dueling Dev responses on that topic (one from the Ten Ton Hammer interview and one from the Guild Summit). As for when they are coming out - I 'thought' it was supposed to be part of the 1.2 update which is scheduled for early April - but I could be wrong on that.

Other than they ARE giving you a combat log which means you should remove your tinfoil hat.

Well - not in that way specifically. A lot of the posts have indicated that they want to use it to compete with their friends and/or others in the groups. That is essentially what is being referred to here.

I suppose we can argue semantics - but you should be able to place the words within the context of the surrounding sentences without my help. But... okay... Is non-falsifiable the same as provable? I like that word... I shall steal it. But there are certainly 'silent jerks' in the world - it doesn't really need to be non-falsified. ;p