I stopped reading there, laughing my *** off. Simply put, if you're playing a Vigilance Guardian properly, you should not lag behind other dps classes such as Sages on relevant fights (basically, about 1.6k is fairly achievable in Denova, which is more than enough to beat the enrage timers, provided other people don't slack). Marauders/Sentinels will of course push ahead, but not by much. The ONLY thing Guardians have against them is their high dependancy on melee range, making some bosses annoying to fight - but that holds for all melee classes. In fact, given defensive cooldowns, it could be argued that Guardians are more reliable a dps here than some others. Long story short: don't blame the class, blame the people playing it.

Actually, they do. Combat Stance that the tank companions get is more potent than Perforation or Exsanguination that the dps characters use. The dps characters will still pull ahead, but by considerably less than most people assume. Scourge in full dps gear and with taunts off works just fine as a dps char, only a tiny bit behind Kira or Rusk, but easier to gear, as he can take your old gear. As for Rusk vs. Kira, I admit I never used Rusk much, but assuming he's like Consular's Zenith, he'll do slightly more damage than his melee counterpart, but would have longer ramp-up time, whereas Kira will win in burst. The result is that I'll prefer Kira / Nadia for most encounters. Long story short: use what you like - properly geared, it'll work just fine.

First, let's make one thing clear: Don't. Your usual reply to forum whines should be this: Now that this is out of the way - my post will approach the topic from the perspective of someone who has played a Guardian (both in pvp and pve) up to and including level 50 in all three specs, while also leveling a Juggernaut and a Marauder to around level 20. If a jedi talent name creeps up somewhere in the text, I profoundly apologize, but the classes are the same anyway. Overall, the class can be just as strong as any other, but you have to decide what you want to do and then stick to it. You can't just mash buttons, then depend on cooldowns / control to get you out of it, that won't work. Second, Juggernauts / Guardians really are all about gear. Have them properly equipped and they'll be monsters, have them in crap gear and they'll be flat on the ground in half a second. The difference for, say, a Sage is far lesser - noticeable, yes, but lesser. One thing I see juggled around is the use of Soresu as nontank. Generally, it's a very, very bad idea. There are a few situations where Soresu can help (such as being the ball carrier in Huttball or buying time before reinforcements arrive), but even in those situations you'll want to have a shield generator equipped to get at least something out of it. The huge advantage over the other two tanks is that we can do this on a whim - we can switch from Shien to Soresu, Guard someone, then jump back to Shien as soon as people stop attacking him, something that the other two simply can't pull off. That's something that can save the day far more often than most people realize. That said, a dps Juggernaut is still a dps Juggernaut. Most opt for Rage, because it can build respectable Smash bombs, but now that Decimate is in Rage tree, Marauders will probably pull it off better. I actually prefer Vigilance build because while it's harder to pull off in pvp, the results can be quite astonishing in proper player's hands. As someone who has also played a Shadow (Assassin equivalent) quite a lot, I actually prefer the post 1.2 Vigilance Guardian. It doesn't have stealth, but beyond that, it's just as good or better. On the topic of defensive cooldowns, this one's a bit wierd. While Juggernaut generally survives more punishment than Marauder, the latter have a few cooldowns that make them quite annoying to fight against. One such example is Undying rage - that 99% damage reduction is VERY noticeable, while Endure Pain or Enraged Defense are rarely going to be noted, yet if not used well, Marauder's cooldown can quickly end up as nothing but "delayed death". Overall this makes the public impression that Marauders are yay while Juggs are nay. If, however, you put an equally good player on one of each, you'd be hard pressed to bet on the winner - in fact, I'd dare say that, due to relying less on active defenses than your average Sage or Shadow (active defense = abilities that fill resolve bar, for instance stuns), Juggernaut might even come on top reliably. Plus, Marauders are a fotm, while Juggernauts are not. That's a win on its own Oh, one more thing (PvE this time ): when I leveled my Guardian, I was switching between Defense and Vigilance quite a bit. I would have sworn that Vigilance was utter poo up until about level 34 or so, at which point it suddenly started shining. I don't know whether something changed in the class or I simply got used to it, but now that I'm leveling a Juggernaut, I don't experience such issues - at level 20, the Vengeance Jugg is still shredding things ad shows no signs of stopping. Maybe I'm just gearing her better this time

Betrayal is part of the cycle. When an apprentice becomes powerful enough to defeat his master, he takes his place. Take a look at Sidious (Palpatine) sacrificing Tyranus (Dooku) in Episode 3 - Tyranus was merely a means to an end, a path to secure a stronger, more powerful apprentice. It wasn't Palpatine's intention to have a weakling at his side, no matter how powerful Dooku was, he was but a portion of Anakin's potential. Had Palpatine desired mere power, all he would have to do is get Anakin killed along with the rest of the Jedi. There, problem solved, he's the lord of the galaxy. But the order of Bane has strict rules - one master, one apprentice, vying for control. You mentioned Tenebrous and Plagueis. That's actually a perfect example of how the Sith operate - the master would use the apprentice to his own advantages, all the while plotting to come out on top. Yet the apprentice would plot against his master as well, bidding time to take the mantle of the sith upon him. When the two faced eachother, only one would be left standing - according to the sith beliefs, the stronger of the two. What makes the exchange interesting is that this time, the murder of the master would not necessarily end in his defeat, but in a backdoor victory. There's actually an example of just this in TOR as well, where the master knows that he's mortal and seeks another way to survive. That's what the sith way is, what the survival of the fittest shows us - either you succeed or you die. There is no middle ground. You mention how the Sith Empires have come and gone. True, but the Sith never vanished. Why is that? Because the Empire is just means to an end. The Sith do not care about the common folk, they're little more than flies from their perspective, fleeting in their weakness. Certainly the sith could just wipe them out, but that would require investment of resources that could be better spent against those who present a threat to their power. This can be seen in the movies as well - the entire Clone Wars, the campaigns and conflicts are built just to destroy the Jedi and turn one of them into an apprentice. For Palpatine, common people and even senators are a power base as long as he needs them. When he does not, he discards them (as seen in Episode IV). Why? Because this is the sith way - anyone worth the hassle will fight back, anyone not worth it should be ignored, because it only distracts you. And yes, herein lies the failing of the Sith, the reason for their downfall. Often, the greatest threat comes from an unlikely person, someone you regarded as completely unimportant until he becomes a threat (at which point it is often too late). This can be seen well in the Inquisitor story, where a mere slave that everyone shunned becomes a major player in the Empire's politics. This can also be seen in Jedi Knight story, where your average Jedi Knight shakes the very foundations of the order. Jedi understand this, because their way is in harmony with the surroundings - the Sith do not. For the Sith, everything including the Force is a tool on the road to perfection - for the Jedi, they are the tool of the already existing perfection, the Force itself. Actually, that's not the entire story. I suggest you read Revan novel, as it explains quite a lot more about Scourge and why he ended up as the Emperor's Wrath. It actually gives you quite an interesting insight into the mind of a Sith. Any proper Sith would plan to betray the Emperor regardless of what he was planning as soon as he could match him in power. The problem is that nobody could match him in power without the fear for their own life. And that's the failing of the Dark Side, inability to do something without regard for one's own safety. Where a Jedi will jump into the fray, ready to die for what he believed in, a Sith will always plot and calculate. If I may, I would compare the Sith to the Goa'uld in Stargate series - as long as one is on top, the others will grudingly admit his power. But that balance will only exist as long as someone else doesn't rise enough to challenge him - then a bloody conflict will happen to determine the next master. This constant race between factions within the society is supposed to drive the civilization forward. Think of it as capitalism on social level

Is it wrong that I was guided to this thread from a lore forum about an MMO I used to play (Scrolls of Lore)? Anyway, I think this thread shows a basic misunderstanding of the Sith and their code, so let's try to fix this: First let's look at the nature. All living things evolve through random mutations, some good, some bad. Those organisms that get a good mutations survive, thrive and evolve further. Those that get bad mutations, fail and die out. Humanity today is a product of a long series of such mutations to create the best organism to date. If we continue down the evolutionary path, we will continue to evolve, become smarter, better adapted to our environment. This is what the Sith essentially believe in - by ensuring that only the strongest survive, their understanding of the Force, their power will grow. In this view, Jedi are a disease - by helping them, they allow the weak to survive, thereby weakening the whole in the process. In essence, it's similar to the view that our social systems go against the natural evolution, that because of this, our species will stagnate or even devolve, because a greater percentage of failed mutations will have survived. Obviously, the Sith way presumes that the "natural selection" is perfect, that it's always the strongest who survive, which is silly to say the least, but it's their way. Now, let's look at their code. For those unfamiliar with the sith order, let me recite it: Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength, through strength I gain power, through power I gain victory, through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free. What do these words tell us? The Sith believe that passions, not just those of the Force, but in general, are the ones that keep one alive, to make him thrive. Fear from predators keeps small animals alive. Rage is what makes a warrior fight harder. Desire to defeat his enemies is what drives a person to improve. Peaceful coexistence is an illusion - a lion will only leave the lamb alone as long as he's not hungry, then he will strike. For a Sith, victory can be achieved through other, even peaceful means, negotiations, but the true, ultimate victory is the one where you defeat your enemies through sheer power, through undeniable proof that you are superior to them. A perfect being would thus be one who would vanquish any enemy he faced and thus trully be free, not just from the rules of the society, but his own limitations, his own "chains". The Sith thus strive to achieve perfection, to trully become allmighty. In this light, the Empire is structured perfectly - if one wishes to progress up the ranks, one needs to fight. The Republic, the Jedi are a hated enemy, an "unnatural abomination" from Sith perspective, but they're not the only enemy. Any creature, be it a bug, a lion, a human or a Sith is all alone in the universe, he strives to reach greatness. If he does not reach it, someone else will. The Emperor represents just this pinnacle - what he did, what he does was to free himself of the bonds of society, mortality, rules of the galaxy. In Revan novel, both Scourge and Darth Nyriss are wrong in their assessment of the Emperor - I have no doubt that if any of the Dark Council was in Emperor's position, they would do exactly the same as him, because it is the Sith way. What Vitiate does is in perfect tune with the Sith ways - the survival of the fittest, even at the cost of the whole galaxy dying. After all, had he become this powerful, he could have reshaped the entire galaxy in his image - he would have become the Sith'ari, the perfect being. In essence, what Darth Bane does to bring about the Rule of the Two is just what the Emperor did, but on a smaller scale - in both cases, one man could shape the future of the Sith order, could shape it into future "perfection". Who doesn't pay attention or isn't powerful enough dies - that is the Sith way. Palpatine killed his master in his sleep, which could be considered cowardice, but then - why didn't Plagueis forsee this? Why didn't he take measures to protect himself? It was Plagueis' own failing to die, just like a sleeping lamb dies to predator. What people seem to misunderstand with the Sith is that while the members are very much egoistic and self-serving, an individual is actually unimportant. If a hundred, a thousand, a million have to die for one person to gain power, then so be it. But even that one is just a stepping stone to a greater goal, the pinnacle of existence, perfection. In a way, the defining difference between Jedi and Sith is the pile of corpses the later leave behind versus the attempt at peaceful coexsistence of the former - a struggle of natural evolution vs. civilized cooperation. So, where does the Empire fit into this? The Empire is a pyramid built from top to bottom in order to support the power of the Emperor. The Sith struggle to move up, generating conflict in the process, which according to Sith philosophy improves the greater whole. The sad truth is, in spite of all the failings of the Sith throughout the millenia, it seems to actually work. While every great Empire eventually collapsed, one could say that up until and including Palpatine, the Sith Order improved and grew more powerful, even if few in numbers after Bane. After all, it was the doings of mere one Sith that destroyed almost the entire Jedi Order after the Clone Wars and wielded the power of the entire galaxy - that's more than even Vitiate achieved in TOR times. I guess the lesson of this post is simple: we may have a different illusion here in the west, but nature is cruel. Sith embody that nature to the fullest. The question is - do we let nature win or do we become something more, something better? But if anything, their polar opposite, the Jedi, teach us another lesson - that passive peacefulness can be just as dangerous because it invites predators to the feast. The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.

Not quite. There's considerable issues with your post that you seemed to have ignored and that would severely unbalance the spec, while leaving the basic reasons of why TK is worse in pvp unchanged. First, a little background: as of right now, the full Telekinesis, full Balance and hybrid TK/Balance sages deal almost exactly the same damage. Baring a bug that allows hybrids slightly more dps, they are within 0.1% of eachother in long term single target dps. What you do in your post is that instead of looking at the spec overall, you focus on the damage of individual abilities. Sniper's shot isn't powerful because it can hit that hard - it's powerful because he can pull it off. Telekinetic Throw has relatively low damage per tick, yet because you can spam and it does damage fast, it's far more useful than castable Disturbance. Now, your solution to this is to bring TK closer to Balance (by increasing alacrity), failing to see that this would overpower TK at what it does best, while still being inferior at what Balance does best. So let's take your sniper example and ask ourselves - why is it that they can cast their abilities and we cannot? The key difference is in secondary abilities. Apart from Force Armor, TK Sage depends on active abilities to defend himself. Stuns, knockbacks, slows and similar are his tools. Unfortunately, those abilities also fill up his enemies' resolve bar, effectively negating his defensive abilities in a dynamic environment. In contrast, Sniper's defenses are his cover (reduces damage), accuracy reduction, immunity to controlling, evasion and a small shield - none of those trigger resolve, allowing the Sniper to use them as needed. Even when they have to run, a Sniper will still retain an amount of his dps, whereas the Sage will have to resort to his instants to deal damage. Even when you look at our talents, you'll see that TK's best talented defensive abilities are an AoE incapacitate and an AoE knockback with snare - both depending on resolve. What TK would need in order to be as viable as Balance in pvp is not faster casting or similar - after all, if one wanted that, one could simply respec to Balance - but a chance to get his abilities off. What does Sage have that Gunslinger does not? Heals just like a Commando. Very well, but what do Commandos have to survive longer? Let's see (together with Gunnery talents): a defensive cooldown, self-heals, more endurance, damage reduction. Do we have a defensive cooldown? We do, of sorts - it's the Force Armor, which can be compared to Gunslinger's Defense Screen. But the rest is missing - again, the Sage depends on hindering abilities rather than defensive ones. Face a Sage with empty resolve bar and he can be nasty, make him face the target with full resolve bar and he won't have anything to fall back to. Obviously, you can't have the Sage ignore resolve as that kind of defeats its purpose then. What I would go with is a mix of two changes: 1. I would give deep TK a talent that makes Disturbance reduce the cost of Benevolence by 20% and increase its healing by 10% (numbers to be modified as needed). That way, at 5 charges, TK would get a sort of defensive cooldown, a free medkit, if you will. Since other specs wouldn't have access to it, it wouldn't make any difference to Balance or Hybrid specs. 2. Disturbance would now be useable on the move. This one was quite controversial. Casters usually have castable abilities in order to root them to the spot and give them an obvious weakness, just like melee's weakness is that they can't really harm you from range (oh, I'm gonna get my *** handed to me by Vanguards and similars for this claim ). I've been thinking of giving the class a defensive cooldown (mostly in conjunction with CM's offer to suggest an ability as Unity's replacement), but then we really haven't done anything, as such an ability would only be more useful for Balance, who I feel to be just fine at the moment. Instead, I settled on a variant of "base attack" (though not free as other classes have it) that would be useable in every situation where other abilities are unavailable. I believe those two changes would build on the strengths of the spec without considerably changing the other two specs. Furthermore, pve dps balance would remain untouched, with each of the three primary specs still having individual strengths, the only thing we really changed was boost TK survival a little bit and upgraded its kiting abilities, that's it. I do have to admit, I like your semi-snare / knockback idea on TK Wave / Turbulence or similar abilities, but to play a melee against that, my rage level would probably go over 9000, so better not

Exactly. In fact, a creative lowbie should actively seek to get infected for monetary benefit alone. Free money is always cool

That's exactly the case. You should always have enough force to use your big hitters, no matter the situation. I think the minimum required is something like 45 Force. It may seem obvious, but given the difference in parse and theoretical values, I'm simply assuming Clairvoyance is used too much, therefore the obvious solution was to present the roughly optimum priority. It's my usual modus operandi - first I check the theoretical values and compare them to real ones, then I look for anomalies, such as extremely high or extremely low crit or proc values. This usually reveals any ability bugs or bad rotation decisions as well. Revise either theoretical or real rotations, then try again, until it fits

It didn't, it was a graphical glitch - if you had the gear equipped and change it out, it appeared as if the set bonus was still active, even though it was not. If you reloaded the character from selection screen, the "bonus" would be gone (and I think zoning worked too).

/facepalm Does really nobody read the patch notes? ALL existing gear in game prior to 1.2 has bonuses on the shell, therefore ripping armoring out will make you lose the bonus (didn't stop me, though; cool looks + augment > set bonus, imo ). The armorings in new gear (specifically, War Hero and Campaign gears, but not Black Hole gear) carry set bonuses on them and can be moved to other pieces. They stated this at least 3x prior to 1.2 launch in official explanations.

If it can be done by a healer Sage, it can be done by a dps Sage of any spec. Hell, these days, I'm even running Red Reaper as dps sage with Nadia, we plow through everything with nothing but Force Armor (except the bridge boss, which Nadia has to solo while I click crystals )

For some reasons, both / all three parses here have a considerably higher rate of Clairvoyant Strikes than there should be. The damage difference between it and Saber Strike is relatively small, but CS costs considerable Force, while SS does not. CS should have second lowest priority, right above SS and even then only if you have about half of your Force left. Project use should be managed so that it's only used after 2 stacks of CS are up (i.e. not necessarily on cooldown). So, rough priority: 1. Project (on 2 stacks CS) 2. Spinning Strike (under 30%, obviously) 3. Shadow Strike (on Weakness) 4. Force Breach (for Circling Shadows) 5. Clairvoyant Strike (if at over 50% Force) 6. Saber Strike Modify a bit if needed, but this should work best. Try it out and report back.

1. Shepard... erm, I mean, Trooper. Need I say why? 2. Smuggler. Just the right amount of sexy, confident and crazy put into the voice. 3. Imperial Agent. I really think Inquisitor and Warrior are over the top and bombastic, but the Agent is just british enough to be cool. Of the force user classes, my voice (heh) would probably go to Knight. Consular is too plain and boring (which I guess it should be, being the diplomat and all), while both sith are, as I said, over the top.

I don't have much experience with Powertechs/Vanguards yet, but I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities: Guardian/Juggernaut: clearly the worst of the three before 1.2, though the differences were lower than expressed by popular opinion. After 1.2, the class is solid, with good defenses, decent aggro generation, decent damage. Your usual aggro assortment is two taunts (which all three tanks have), something like 7 actively used abilities, three defensive cooldowns and a few situational abilities. All in all, perfectly manageable, similar to WoW warrior. Somewhat worse at AoE threat, but due to taunt mechanics' active threat generation, that's no biggy. I just wish sometimes I'd have a pull. Yeah, Shadows and Vanguards spoiled me Shadow/Assassin: the closest comparison in WoW would be the druid or death knight, though Shadow feels different than either of those. Excellent AoE threat generation, self healing, short range abilities, decent dps, decent CC, but with one drawback - unlike the other two tanks, this one depends on a charge based shield mechanic. On a single target, that makes no difference whatsoever (which makes Shadows/Assassins remarkably strong boss tanks), but on trash, that shield can run out FAST, making AoE tanking new content a bit riskier than with the other two. Again, the differences are in a few percent. The class has one less defensive cooldown than Guardian/Juggernaut, but can heal himself for a bit far more often than others can defend themselves. Overall, a good, solid tank. One other thing: whereas Guardian/Juggernaut depends on AoE centered around the tank for reducing incoming damage, the Shadow has an attack that's centered on the target. If they're standing close to CC, you can't really use it and need to creatively pull the mobs away, whereas a Guardian can just reposition himself. Since Force Pull has a minimum range, this can get quite annoying, but you get used to it. Powertech/Vanguard: as I said, I don't have much experience with this one yet. From what I gathered so far, Vanguard combines the other two - it has both pull and charge, some semi-ranged abilities, two defensive cooldowns, some crown controls and very powerful AoE burst threat. Overall, I'd say about the same amount of actively used abilities as the other classes. Additional note: if you intend to tank seriously, I strongly recommend going Biochem. The power of permanent Adrenal, Medpack and Stim cannot possibly be stressed enough for the purposes of tanking. You want it, you need it, you should have it.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we weren't nerfed, we were. The question is whether we were nerfed too much or not, where I firmly believe that we are just fine, both as pvp and pve healer and dps. I need to think now? Oh noes! Anyone who seriously thought about it knew it was going to happen sooner or later. DPS evidence shows that they've done a tremendous job at balancing the three specs (and indeed classes in general) and while I don't have the healing data, my general feeling is that it's not much worse than it was, using a combo of Rejuvenation, Healing Trance, Armor and Deliverance accomplishes everything, while Benevolence is still useless just as before As for numbers: usually nowhere near the OP. Why? Because I don't spam shield everything in range, but throw my heals out as they are needed. A timed shield when the target is at 1/3 health is often much more useful than shielding it at full and having a debuff when you need a fast temporary health boost (which the shield essentially is).