I played infil spec for months until i switched to the kinetic spec. If you want to know exactly how kinketic build nets in more dps compared to infil build. I'll post here. I will be comparing the 2/31/8 infil build with the 27/0/14 hyrbird kinetic build. Both the builds use the same set. Bm stalker set, with focus offhand and most of the mods /enhancements replaced to net maximum power. 1. Infil gets a buffed up project at a 6 sec CD. Gets 30% base dmg and 50% crit dmg increase. Now buffed up with relics and adrenals, the thing hits for like 4.5k on other bm targets(less on tanks, but we r taking about non tank targets, using no defensive CD), followed up by a 45% chance for another hit. So this thing for infil could do around 7k dmg, if all the stars allign for u, or that u use Force potency. The only problem is, I noticed...Regardless of my crit%, outside of Force Potency charges...This skill crit so less. This is what gimps it, Only project crits hit hard, the normal dmg is ******. Also since the buildup is obvious, any smart class uses a defensive CD before getting hit by the project( Just wait for 2 voltaic slash hits and pop a defensive cd) Now For the hybrid kinetic build. We get an auto crit project. Without buffs, this things crits for 2.8kish on non tank targets. Using force potency gives it 50% increase crit dmg. So if using Force Potency and buffs, one could do around close to 6kish dmg with this. 4k basic buffed project and 2k for the extra hit. The thing why i prefer this project over infil project is, This crits always!. Next, the cd isn't 6 seconds. It usually resets in 1 to 2 double strikes. I.E. cds ends up being close to 3sec to 4.5 sec. 2. Infil's Force Breach which is on a 12 sec cd, does around the same dmg as a project crit(first hit, not including second hit) if not used with full charges. But if some 1 gets all the charges for maximizing dmg, buffed up with force potency, this thing does about 5.5k dmg to pretty much all types of targets(Including tanks..since its internal dmg) Hybrid gets a Force in balance, which does less dmg compared to infil's force breach. Non buffed crits are for around 2.8k and buffed crits are around 3.7k. It also does the same amount of dmg to all sort of targets as it is internal dmg. Well infil clearly does more dmg in this one, but both the skills have a high cd to be really considered causing a dps difference 3. Infil's use voltaic slash, which does 1k+1k per crit. They use this to build up project and this is sort of the most used skill for infil. HBybrid kinetic use double strike, which does like 1.3k + 1.3k. Around almost 500 more dmg than infil. Since this is a no cd move. This causes a significant dps difference regarding the both 4. Infil's Shadow strike does about 30% crit dmg + 50% armor pen. So like 3.5k - 4k crits. This hits hard if it crits, almost as much as a project crit. Kinetic buffed up Tk Throw, hits for about 1.8k unbuffed and 2.3k buffed per tick. so we r talkin about 3.6k to 4.6k dmg per 1.5 sec or 7.2k to 9k dmg in 3 secs Compared to infil, kinetic wins this for sure. 5. Infil's finisher does roughly about 5% more dmg compared to Hybrid's finisher. So again nothing major. This roughly comprises the skills both the specs use. To sum it up Every 1min and 15 secs infil can produce stronger burst compared to Hybrid. But sustained dmg overall for Hybrid is better. Also, Hybrid's do have a burst, not as strong as infil, but its pretty good. The reason why I am saying sustained for hybrid is better is not only because they can take hits from 5 different people while doing the hits, i.e. survive while dpsing. But also because, Infil's dont crit as much on the important skills and Hybrids crit way too much.

A simple question, What well played class can effectively beat us, dps kinetic shadows 1v1?

You would do 1200 non crits on a marauder and if they r crits, it would probably be cause of the defensive cds the marauder used. I dont mind good players doing good, but even bad players do too good with this spec. It has like a huge room to make mistakes. I can and i still always kill fully geared healers even during duels. The only problem would be scoundrel healers, but atleast in my server we have like 1 or 2 good ones, thats it.

I'm talkin about full bm sorcs only. Scoundrels, Snipers, Marauders, DPS sins, Even mercs i get 2.1k per tick Whats the difference between a Infiltration Shadow's Project and Kinetic Shadow's Project. When both are using force potency, Just the 30% dmg difference from voltaic slash, which turns out to be about 700 dmg, thats it. Also, since getting full pvp gear has become easy compared to before, There is not much difference in the defense of a champ/bm sorc, full bm sorc...or any other class mostly. Only thing changes is that, they get more dps. This is same for pretty much all classes

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers. Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo. Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec. Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds. If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once. This is why I agree with AMKSED

As a full bm shadow using tank spec and dps gear, i can usually take out 3 full bm players with normal pvp skills alone. Now even bad players do very good with the same spec, thats why i think its overpowered and needs a nerf.

As the topic name suggest, i would like to no if the skill dual wield mastery is any good and what all abilities does it affect.

So 6.5k hits r possible... Does that mean u can pull off 2 in a row, repeating the same burst pre nerf scoundrels used to do?

Here is my response point by point 1. Well the problems you are saying regarding goin back to stealth is the same with a sin/shadow as well. Also, we both agree that Scoundrel/operative have better stealth burst. 2. I posted it before, i will post it again Now calculating a sin/shadows out of stealth burst. As a full bm hitting a 650 expertise scoundrel. Buffed up shock (With relics, recklessness etc etc) Does 4.2k dmg if single hit, 6.5k dmg if double hit. Followed by discharge (Not considering all 5 charges) which does like 4k dmg...So the burst is close to 10k Now a scoundrel could flashbang, Use a Sabotage Charge, Cast XS firefighter, Flechette round + Back Blast Now this would be Sabotage Charge (3.2k dmg if crit), XS (3k dmg per tick per crit), Back Blast(3.2k dmg if crit ), Flecheete round (3k dmg over 6 seconds) So this also gives close to 10k dmg in an instant on a player out of stealth I agree, it would be easier for the sin to set it up compared to an operative/scoundrel 3. Now I am talking about sustained dmg in pvp. Now your calculation that it took 3 secs to do all that is wrong. Even with the skills u r using, it would be 4.5 secs, i.e. 1gcd short of another rotation. ALSO, In pvp...You don't get to use the rotation like that. You use other skills also, Dirty kick, flashbang, heals, Tendon blast. I mean, in real pvp, you rarely fall short of useful skills to use if they r in cd Sins use the rotation 2x Voltaic slash, Trash which does like 1.5k dmg avg then shock and discharge if cd is up. Non crit shock hits for 1.4k dmg. So IF shock doesn't crit, which it usually doesnt..sin ends up doing 4.5k dmg in about 4.5 sec gcd While Flecheete round does more than half of it being a no gcd dot I mean, I have both the characters... Really scoundrels do better sustained dps out of stealth compared to sins 4. Shock non crit 1.4k dmg crit 3.4k dmg Back blast non crit 1.5k crit 3.2k + flechete round Look pretty much all skills do the same dmg on crits, while scoundrel does more crits 5. As i posted before, heals are enough to get us back one heal crits heals us for about 30% of our hp Regarding your extra points... I agree assassinate is useful too Overcharge saber isn't that great, considerin we have a 25% chance to proc surging charge Next, even with recklessness up, People know when the are about to be hit by the burst..they use their defensive cds reducing the dmg output by a loooot!

Lets just say you won't be able to rip apart a good scoundrel even if you fought him out of stealth ^_^

1. They had insane burst before, now they have semi insane burst. Wtih relics and stuff Shoot First (Close to 5k dmg crit) Flechette Round ( Close to 3k Dmg over 6 seconds ) Back Blast (Close to 4k dmg crit) So over a period of 1.5 sec a scoundrel still does/applies close to 12k dmg. They way the animations and lag works in the game, a socundrel gets another hit in too which is like 3.5k dmg if crit. Not to mention, a scoundrel could always Shoot first > Vanish > Shoot First again. The best thing is that, no 1 gets a chance to fight back during this time, while a deception sin/infil shadow has to build up the shock proc and any 1 can use a defensive cd that time 2. Now calculating a sin/shadows out of stealth burst. As a full bm hitting a 650 expertise scoundrel. Buffed up shock (With relics, recklessness etc etc) Does 4.2k dmg if single hit, 6.5k dmg if double hit. Followed by discharge (Not considering all 5 charges) which does like 4k dmg...So the burst is close to 10k Now a scoundrel could flashbang, Use a Sabotage Charge, Cast XS firefighter, Flechette round + Back Blast Now this would be Sabotage Charge (3.2k dmg if crit), XS (3k dmg per tick per crit), Back Blast(3.2k dmg if crit ), Flecheete round (3k dmg over 6 seconds) So this also gives close to 10k dmg in an instant on a player out of stealth 3. Looking at the dmg numbers, only time a sin did comparable dmg was when sin had recklessness up. Scounrel,operative do better sustained cause :- a. Most skills have kinetic dmg b. Flecheete round being out of gcd, meaning...u get an extra 3k hit every 6 seconds c. Sin crits might be doing more dmg number wise by like 300 dmg but they crit way way way lesser compared to scoundrel. Also scoundrel dps increases cause of dots 5. So, 4.5k self heal crits over 2 secs is crap? A scoundrel can heal himself 70 to 100% health in a flashbang cc 6. CCs might essentially look the same but they act way differently As a sin, i would only cc to intterupt mostly. As once i cc, the only thing that I can do is DPS As a scoundrel, I can either heal myself up or create a huge burst. Flashbang might break on dmg. But it creates a huge range of possibles as mentioned on the above points. Heck, it is the reason..I can win 2v1s mostly as a scoundrel. 7. A 30m range instant dot which lasts 21 seconds is useful for defense. Also it is internal dmg. I could stop people from capping a node. From planting the door. For some other stealth class which won't be able to vanish cause of dot. In prolonged fights especially against tanks it would do internal dmg. 8. 30m range on that skill itself is again so important while trying to defend. Sins get a 30m cc or have to use recklessness. 9. As I said, a concealment operative/scrapper scoundrel would definitely have that skill ^_^

Hey guys, I have both the mirror classes of the above mentioned characters and as i posted this on the mirror forum, i will post it here too Shadow(sin) is full BM, while Scoundrel(Operative) just has the accessories. IMHO, Scoundrel(Operative) is way way way better in pvp ^_^ Reasons :- 1. Better burst dmg from stealth 2. Almost comparable burst dmg to a shadow even out of stealth 3. Better sustained dmg compared to shadows out of stealth 4. Better total crit rate cause of passives as well as better crit rate for important skills 5. HEALS 6. Better CCs and they allow to create more combos 7. An instant DOT at a 30 range which can be hella useful 8. 30m range on normal attacks 9. A slow that roots as well! The only thing infil shadow has better is the 3 sec resilience and force speed

Hey guys, I have both the above mentioned characters Shadow is full BM, while Scoundrel just has the accessories. IMHO, Scoundrel is way way way better in pvp ^_^ Reasons :- 1. Better burst dmg from stealth 2. Almost comparable burst dmg to a shadow even out of stealth 3. Better sustained dmg compared to shadows out of stealth 4. Better total crit rate cause of passives as well as better crit rate for important skills 5. HEALS 6. Better CCs and they allow to create more combos 7. An instant DOT at a 30 range which can be hella useful 8. 30m range on normal attacks 9. A slow that roots as well! The only thing infil shadow has better is the 3 sec resilience and force speed

In pvp? is it any useful?

Topic says it all