I think tanks are far from useless in PvP. My healers have expressed similar feelings. I honestly think that the changes in 1.2 actually made tanking more important, not less. You need to understand a few things to be a good PvP tank though: 1) You're not really a "tank." You're not. You're very slightly harder to kill than somebody else, which is offset by how much less damage you do than a dps. Think of yourself as an incredible damage sponge instead. 2) You have one primary value to a good team: guarding good healers. You give the healers a fighting chance. By guarding (and staying near) a healer, you make it near-impossible for a player (or several players) to kill a healer without them having a chance to respond. Here's what I mean by "good healer": They have to be able to keep themselves alive, and then other people alive as well, while guarded. This means they have to consistently remember to heal you, and treat your health like it's their own. Once you're dead, so are they. If you have good healer that can't be bursted down because you're there taunting and guarding, you'll have a tough team to beat. That said, don't be afraid to switch your guard. If the other team is not hitting your healer, switch your guard to protect whoever they are trying to focus. 3) If the healer is bad, it doesnt really help to guard them. Sorry, but it's true. If the healer you're guarding is one of those who doesn't heal well enough to keep others alive while healing themselves, it wont help to keep them alive. Also, if they just stand there and make no effort to kite or forget to heal you, you're not going to add much to the warzone, because keeping them alive for the extra few seconds it takes to drain your HPs before theirs, wont mean a thing. 4) Not all "protection" is created equal. Guard is awesome, but it's not as good as taunt. I know, it sounds backwards. We all know how easy it is to get insanely high protection numbers with guard, and we all know how much healers (or DPSers) love guard, but it's no taunt. Here's the difference: Guard damage still goes to you. Somebody still has to heal that, or people end up dead. Taunt actually prevents damage. Nobody has to heal damage that gets taunted away. But here's the lovely thing: you can taunt and guard! Don't be lazy and just sit there with guard on and pretend you're a DPSer...always use your taunts because they benefit your team in ways guard cant, plus they're free and off the GCD, so there is no excuse not to use them. 5) Have a good healer? Did I mention that already? It's sad, but honestly, there's just not that much benefit to being a tank if you dont have good healers in a group. When I solo queue, I'm much more succesful as a DPS spec, but when I queue with my good healer(s) in a tank spec, we win almost every game. I just played quite possibly my favorite WZ ever. It was a very hard-fought heavy healing Alderan, where I got to do 350k damage (a lot of AEs, i dont really hit that hard), but protect my healers (and others) for 550k. At no point did I feel useless. Tanks have a role in PvP, you just have to work for it and you will rely on other players as well.

I actually love huttball. I like Voidstar a little better, but I really enjoy huttball. That said, pretending it's ok that some classes are much better in huttball is just weak. Don't give me "we can't all be the <insert position> in <insert sports analogy here>" because it doesn't apply. It would apply if the classes that were best at running the ball were also bad at defending or something, but that's not the case. Sorcs aren't bad healers because they have such great utility in huttball. Juggernauts aren't weak tanks because they have multiple charges, and the best knockback. It's not the difference between the offensive line and the quarterback in football. It's not that both classes are doing something that the other class can't do. It's that one class A can do everythng class B can do, and also is much more useful in some other way. If you have to use a sports analogy: Soccer. One team has a standard side. The other team has 11 goalies. Those goalies are still free to run up the field, be athletic and make plays, try to score, etc. But if they decide to defend, each one could use their hands to defend the goal (utility not matched by players on the other team.) That's the problem. Huttball is a great concept, it's really fun. Pretending it's ok to have "alpha classes" in it, is just sad though.

Here's the thing about the "mover" role. They don't sacrifice anything else. Juggs aren't worse tanks or DPS because they have 2 (or 3) charges. Sorcs aren't bad healers or dps because they have sprint and friendly pull. So if there is a "mover role" we should buff Ops because they're only DPS or heals while a Sorc is DPS or heals + an additional mover role. We're going to fundamentally disagree on the value of these things. I play a PT, meaning I spec into my charge if I want it. So as someone who has done a lot of huttball with a charge, and without it I can say this: The goals are not equally earned. Charging out of the pit or across fires lets me score practically at will. The other team has to play much better than I am playing to stop me. (I.E. be prepared to knock me back when I know who/when I'm charging to, and they don't, or get in a position to pull me, again when they dont know who/when I'm charging to.) My experience was not that different from the jugg earlier in this thread who boasted that he can score multiple goals even when his team is bad. It's laughably easy. When I play as a pyrotech (no charge.) I basically don't try to score. I know it's a detriment to my team for me to run the ball because (as you pointed out) lots of classes have movement abilities, and I'm not one of them. When I do try to score, it is absolutely like playing a different game. It is difficult to score and I rely completely on my teammates. I have scored plenty of times this way too, but to compare the skill/effort involved between the two is ridiculous. It only gets worse when you start adding multiple pulls and/or charge into the scenario. Many premades on my server have started running 3 sorcs and a juggie because (in one of their words) "huttball is basically a free win, and we get it all the time." I'm also going to have to disagree with you on the idea that the change would make things "slower." I can pass pretty much as fast as anybody else can hit the charge button. Is there a slight delay? Yeah, but it's fractions of a second, and would not be a big difference. The difference would be that the defense would have an opportunity to intercept, and of course that any class could do it. That's a big deal. I really don't see the downside of balance. Having to hit the pass button to do all the things people are doing now, is not a big deal.

That's the thing...all of those avenues are still open without those abilites. A player can still charge up ramps, and then you can throw him the ball. The ball can still jump up different levels via passing. The problem is that those abilites trade the most dynamic part of huttball, passing, and replace it with no-risk tap one ability and win situations. The question isn't "Is it possible to stop a team of sorcs/juggies?" Of course it's possible. The question is: "Is a team of sorcs/juggies at a significant advantage over other teams in huttball?" So far nobody has even tried to argue that they're not. Ask yourself: Why should my team have to play better more sound defense to stop a team of sorcs and juggies than they have to play to stop my team without them? Why should it be so much easier for team A (3 sorcs and a juggie), than team B (3 mercs and a pyrotech PT) to score? If team A actually plays better than team B, they should win. But simply by virtue of having the right classes team A is much more threatening than team B any time any one of their players moves forward. That means if both teams play equally well, team A will win every time. That's a problem. My argument is as follows: 1) Giving certain classes huge advantages in huttball, is bad. 2) The classes in question would still be very strong in huttball (read: the best), even if those abilities didnt work with the ball. 3) The game is actually more complex and dynamic when it's not simply "let the sorc pull you past the fire," or "let the juggie run into the pit then intercede to the stealther." Throws could be used in either situation to accomplish the same thing. But those abilities take out the risk of an interception, and cheapen the scoring in huttball. You are correct. The suggestion would make it harder to score, but think about why: The difference is that all teams would have to score the way that teams without those abilities have to score right now; they have to earn it. Is that really a bad thing? Like I said before, PvP is only meaningful when everybody is playing the same game. The difference between having sorcs/Juggs on your team in Huttball is game-changing, it's night and day. Why not have everyone playing the same game?

See I disagree. I don't think that it makes huttball simpler at all. There is nothing you can do now that you couldnt do with a change in place that makes the huttball drop when charge/rescue/sprint are used. Want to get the ball to where that inquisitor is standing? Throw it to him. Want to get the ball to where that inquisitor is standing and have another player there too? Throw it to him, then have him pull you. Want to get the huttball out of the pit using charge? Have your juggie charge out of the pit, and then throw it to him. Hell, he even has a huge knockback to use on the other guy to make sure he catches it. Want to utilize sprint to advance the ball quickly? Use it and you'll get ahead of the ball faster than any other class can, and you'll be open for the pass. If anything this makes huttball more complicated. Because let's be honest, there's nothing simpler in huttball than pulling a guy across the fire after you sprinted through it then having him use his sprint for a free goal. For me it makes the abilities useful, instead of free goals. I honestly don't see any argument against this change except, "I want to be significantly stronger than classes who don't have these abilities."

Dude...seriously. I really hope this is a joke because take a look at what you wrote. "Even if my team is bad I can score enough to win because I play a Sage and Jugg." You just made his point. Go roll an operative or any class that doesn't have an "i win" button huttball skill and do the same thing. His point was some classes are significantly better than others and it cheapens the scoring...you supported his argument. Anybody who actually wants balance can not possibly disagree with the idea to make the ball drop. Here's what kills me about this argument: The classes that are currently the best at huttball would still be the best classes for huttball. Sprint, leap, and rescue all have uses outside of scoring free goals. And all the classes that have them, also have knockbacks, which are pretty big for huttball. Relax guys, you'd still be OPed. A change like this would just mean it was a little closer. I play a lot of huttball, and I don't see how anyone can argue that games with some of these OPed abilities are fun. It doesn't matter which side i'm on, if I win with 4 sorcs pulling their way to victory, it feels cheap and meaningless. If I lose, it still feels meaningless. PvP only means something if both sides are playing the same game. Huttball with and without high numbers of sorcs/juggies are two different games.

This. Almost completely this. The only thing I would add is that it's not that teamwork doesn't matter, or skill doesn't matter. But if one assumes 2 teams of equal skill and equal teamwork, equal gear etc: Team A: 3 sorcs and a Juggie (dps speced for comparison's sake) Team B: 3 mercs and a Powertech (dps speced so he doesn't have charge.) If those two teams play equally well against each other, team A should win pretty much every time. That's the problem. Also, making those abilities not work on the ball wouldn't be that big a deal. Anyone can see how team A would still have huge advantages over team B in huttball even without being able to pull/charge with the ball. (being able to charge out of pit and then get the ball thrown to them, being able to pull someone up to ramp and away from DPS, etc.) If a change were made to make those abilites not work on the huttball, the classes that are currently the best for huttball would still be the best, it just wouldn't be by such an overwhelmingly large margin.

It has happened to me. It's pretty rare, for me 2 or 3 times the entire time since launch. But I've been playing (always with locked quickbars) and all of a sudden my left or right quickslot bar will just be gone. You can't use those abilities anymore, which was kind of frustrating when it was the bar with "throw huttball" on it. edit: wanted to add that for me me, going into the preferences window and unchecking "enable left/right quickbar" and then rechecking it again fixed the issue.

I believe his point was that the BH/Vanguard self-heals (so also an ability) do not go towards healing totals. I use it all the time, and always have 0 healing at the end of a warzone.

About half an hour. Love my server. Even after the 50s bracket, and so many people in Ilum, we still have a pretty good pop rate. Slowest I've ever done the WZ daily in was like an hour and fifteen minutes, because I had a lengthy run where none of my wins were counting.

Two main problems with the Ilum changes for me: 1) The rewards are so high it trivializes all valor gains up until this point. 2) It is terrible PvP. The end result is a choice between being left behind by everyone who chooses this PvP in valor, or participating in the zerg v zerg campfest that is the new Ilum. Awesome.

Thanks for the explanations some of you have provided. It makes sense. It's a terrible system, but at least it makes sense. (Also, I did eventually find the ranged/melee notation in the powers list. I apparently have a blind-spot for grayed out text all by its lonesome, my bad.) That said, if this is indeed intentional I think it should be reconsidered. If anybody doubts the uselessness of defensive stats in PvP, I issue you the following challenge: Take off your shield generator. Substitute in one of the power generators that doesn't give you a shield chance. Do that, and see if you notice any drop-off in damage mitigation. I've done it, and didn't notice any drop-off in survivability. Once you're done, ask yourself this: Is that non-noticeable, or at best slightly noticeable difference in survival worth nearly all the stat points on my tanking gear? IMO, the system needs to be reexamined. If a stat is a tanking stat, it should mitigate equally across all classes. Maybe not every ability, but no classes should be the only ones that have to worry about going through shields. If that's not going to be done, give the tanking PvP itemization something that actually works against all classes, even if it's just more endurance, in place of at least some of the +shield/absorb/defense.

I'm looking at it ingame right now and the "melee" and "ranged" abilities aren't showing up. Want to give an example? I know unload can be shielded against. The tooltip says weapon damage, but I have yet to see an ability that is listed as "melee" or "ranged" implying that those are the only ones that should be shielded against. Beyond that, I agree with you...yes, every attack is technically melee or ranged. Which would mean they should be shielded X% of the time. It's possible i'm missing it, for sure.

I think some people seem to be coming to this thread wanting to argue that things are working as intended. Keep in mind that the tooltip says nothing about weapon damage attacks only. The tooltip for shielding says it gives you X% chance to shield melee and ranged attacks. If anybody attacks me with something that is neither melee nor ranged, I will gladly accept that I should have a 0% chance to shield, until then it's not working as intended. If Bioware wants to come out and say this is working as intended and change the tooltip, I will gladly respec to a DPS, or at least trade in all my tanking gear for PvP.

I played a trooper in beta. Delays seemed identical to me. Is there any proof of this? I've seen it stated about 1,000 times (hence this thread, nice job OP), but my personal experience is very different and I've never seen any proof.