A little further expansion on this thought, when you go full 36 AP build, the extra talents you take for PVE that are not damage are at least USEFUL to PVE content (all around damage reduction). You then get 8 points for the tank tree to grab ALL the DPS increase talents, and 2 points in the Pyro tree to grab ALL the important DPS talents. Leaving you with 0 DPS increasing talents left out on a full AP build. I don't think this is clear enough to the devs on the flaw of Pyro. You are WASTING points on your talent tree to get to 36, points that in NO WAY help you in PVE content, are forced to skip out on points from the first 2 tiers of the other two trees. When you look from a Pyro perspective, there are 16 points total which could be allocated in the other trees which increase your damage, yet you only have 10 to allocate if you go a full 36 point build... So why would anyone WANT to sacrifice points for non-dps increasing talents in the Pyro tree to get to the top, on a lackluster top ability, when I can forgo all of that and just stick 16 points across the other two trees?

Wasn't trying to suggest that they were helpful. Just trying to reason their goal with the changes and make sense of it. If you can understand their reasoning behind the changes (something they never seem to do a decent job of explaining... seriously... BW Devs reading this... this is your biggest single point of failure... if we don't know WHY you do something to a class, we can have no hope of explaining to you why you might be wrong on a decision, or presenting a proper counter argument. Simple change, when you make a major class balance decision that isn't a "bug fix" you should probably explain your reasoning and goal. /rant) then you can maybe have a starting point for putting them back on the right path. Although it does seem like a futile attempt to get them to see good reason. +1 on this whole post (I snipped it down for brevity). I think this sums up the overall problem with Pyro and to a lesser extent AP and ST. Which is why buffing the top of the tree or moving talents around/getting rid of talents would be a good step in the right direction. You should never have to take a talent that you feel is pointless. In order to get to TD how many are you taking? Lets just look at things that directly boost your damage vs everything else... Tier 1: Integrated Cardio Package - 3 points Tier 2: Sweltering Heat - 2 points / Gyroscopic Alignment Jets - 2 points Tier 3: Pyro Shield - 2 points / Infared Sensors - 2 points Tier 4: Flame Suit - 2 Points Tier 6: Degauss - 2 Points Tier 7: Automated Defenses - 2 Points Again, that is strictly speaking things which would do nothing for you to boost your damage in a PVE encounter totaling 17 points. If you took everything in the tree it would be 43 points. Strangely though, you look at AP and you have 23 talents with 42 point allocation. Pyro is 21 talents with 43 point allocation... Explain that ****? You have LESS talents in the tree that require more points and so many of them are lackluster or useless to increasing your damage. Finally looking at the total number of non-damage increasing talents in the AP tree, and you have also 7 (I am counting Pneumatic Boots as a damage increase since you will never (or rarely ever) have a fight with 0 movement, so an increase in movement speed is your single greatest increase in damage) talents that are buffs to other aspects of the build. Then you look at how many points are put onto those 7 talents and it is only 12 points. So even if you feel compelled to take some of these talents you are only at most spending 12 points, giving you 5 points to stick in something that would increase your damage. All of this helps to make AP feel like a more complete tree. You can spec up the tree multiple ways, but the core 36 point spec in the tree is going to be pretty much everything you would ever need/want in a PVE type encounter. Seriously, take the Pyro tree COMPLETELY back to the drawing board. Figure out what you want to do with the spec, how you feel it should play out, then design it around that goal following the same or similar pattern you took on AP. It feel like 2 different people designed these two trees... Or someone put way more love and care in designing AP. AP has it's problems, no doubt... but Pyro is just horrible. As you state, Otto, the core of the tree's issues become apparent now that they took away all the damage.

Yes, you said pretty much exactly what I said, but in another way... The top of the trees suck... the bottoms are way better. So you go with all the bottom talents and forgo the top. It's an age old problem with the entire talent tree design and I wish they would find a way to do away with the whole "perceived choice" in the trees since it just royally screws with balance. Each class should have 3 basic play styles, You push a button and it switches you to that style. End of discussion, problem solved. Then you don't have to worry about balancing the talent trees... if CGC hits too hard, lower the damage... if TD needs to be redesigned make it better. Would also clearly show you which classes are lackluster and which spec's need help. This whole archaic talent tree design just continues to cause massive amounts of issues. The trees just cause confusion to new players, creates wild and crazy builds that are impossible to balance content around, and there ends up never really being a real choice. Theorycrafters will always tear apart the trees and figure out the best possible builds... either you play one of those or you don't play with the serious crowd. You can make fun and interresting combat without giving people "options" on the trees. Think about it this way, there are 8 classes in the game each with 3 trees, That is 24 "unique" play styles. If they would strip it down to a set 24 spec's how much easier would it be to balance the game? I am also a firm believer in separation of PVP and PVE... you can never hope to come to a balance when one play style affects another. So my pie in the sky wish for Star Wars, work right now, toward 3.0 class redesign. Strip away the talent trees, make it a fixed 24 "Jobs/Classes/Specs/whatever" and then separate the balance between PVP and PVE. That certainly doesn't mean simplify the classes or rotations. You still can have fun and interesting gameplay without needing the excess.

Sorry, but buffing the top of the tree has been the single biggest request. Should they have left Gut/RB (and to some extent IM (and whatever it is called for trooper)) alone? Sure I won't really argue there. I do like that IM costs less and wish they would leave the damage alone, because I really don't think it would impact DPS by too much. My guess is that they nerfed both of these, more because they were re-assessing the heat on them, instead of considering what it would do to hybrids. When they target a break on hybrids there is no mistaking it for something else... These changes don't give that impression. Finally, BH and Trooper in general (whether mec/mando or pt/vg) is really OP at the early levels as it is. One of the easiest classes to level and most fun (maybe it is why I am so partial to my PT, and even enjoying my Merc though not quite max level). A small nerf to these lower tiers does not really impact your lowbie play much, because they were not what made the class so OP. It was that you get all of your AOE within the first 15 or so levels... and we all know how strong FT/PC and DFA are to the class, hence why they are used on some spec's single target rotations. They just need to buff the top of the Pyro/Assault tree a BUNCH more.

I decided to call it quits after their initial wave of responses (both the dev response on the PTS forums and the dev response to the "answers" to our questions)... It was one thing to "wait and see", but when they came out and said they didn't really see a problem with the class, I was just done throwing money at them. To put it another way, if you took your car to the mechanic and it wasn't running correctly... paid them 50$ to have them look it over, only to have them tell you there was nothing wrong with the car (even though there clearly is problems), would you continue taking your car back to that mechanic? Insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again but expecting a different result... I am tired of being the guy in my signature... it no longer feels good when I stop banging my face against the wall.

Tanking is fine, assuming for PVE content. PVP content... prolly not, but, honestly I haven't done PVP in a while (did it for about 1 month into 2.0 and just got totally fed up with the nerfs and refused to play.) What most people say is that you are ok, as a tank in PVP, just no where near optimal. So if you are running random WZs you would prolly be fine. If, however you are going for the serious gameplay, your group would be much better served to find a jugg. We need some help for PVP, and that change would also likely put us in a pretty good spot for PVE tanking as well (depending on the change) so I would see that as a positive all around, but as it stands you can go into NiM content as a PT Tank and do just fine, and you would not be (or should not be) a drag on your team. As for Mercs, they serve a purpose in Ops content, but you only ever want ONE of them in your group. Whereas the other two healers are good enough that you can afford to have 2 of them in your group (assuming 16 man). 8 Man, I would say if you are really good, you could be useful to the team as a healer. PVP, Operative healers or ****, especially with WZs on the horizon, the single best healer is going to be the Operative. I think most of the issues with this game comes down to, 4 really amazing classes/specs, and then either sub-optimal, or downright horrible specs/classes for everything else... Which has major impact on PVP, more than anything.

Haha! Sure, lemme mail it all over to you Yeah, I think AP will likely be in a decent spot for PVE now for DPS, but I still fear without added utility or being in competition for the number 1 on DPS (don't need both, just need one or the other) then it will still be in your NiM raid's best interest to find another class or beg and plead for you to reroll. I still don't like how FT works for PVP purposes, so unless they make it the single greatest ability in the game, then they MUST make it so you are less susceptible to CC to be more balanced. For such a horribly positional attack AND being planted the entire time AND being susceptible to having it interrupted (in one way or another) just makes it too much of a liability. If you make it work, more power to you, Im not saying it is impossible, but just horribly favored against you. Pyro, is of course, still in a bad spot. I won't be testing the changes pushed forward on the latest PTS build, but, while it seems like they address some of the survival concerns I don't think they realize just how far behind pyro still is on damage. To answer your question, If I come back at all for 2.4, it will be to run through the ops, and see the story (one thing they have never seemed to fail on) and that will likely be the extent of it. I cannot push toward the idea of NiM content while our class is just so far behind. I feel like such a drag on my teammates and I can't do that to them. Lucky for me, I don't have to worry about that now, since our guild decided to make the main focus of our gameplay be into FFXIV. There is still a handful of people who are staying subbed to SWTOR and another handful that will keep playing while under F2P... but overall the vast majority of us (small guild of like 25-30 players) are seriously focusing on the other game. If we come back it will be because things change in this game for the better. I have hope.

You can try mass copying the same character over who actually has comms to buy the gear, and then consolidating it down onto your PT. I know a lot of people have been doing that in order to test for PVP.

I saw a pretty decent improvement in my testing for what it's worth. At least with AP and damage. Pyro is still horrible. PVP wise for DPS we are still in a horrible place (unless you do a crazy unintended hybrid/tank spec to just be decent... not amazing... just not a drag on your team), PVP tank wise you can go full tank and be OK. It is viable but if it is a choice between you and a Jugg, the Jugg is going to win out every time (regardless of gear or skill). And as far as viability for NiM OPs... Your team would still be better suited in every aspect to take either a mara or a sniper since they offer far better DPS and utility.

Thank you for finally replying with a least a kind response of: we are looking into it and will get back to you. If only this had been done from the beginning this whole mess could have been avoided, or largely avoided. I am sorry that it came down to this. I look forward to seeing the response. I'm sorry, it took this long to come back with a reasonable response, since I have already pulled my sub. I will gladly return after I see results and real and testable data showing major improvements on the class. But until then you have lost a paying customer since I am just not willing to "wait and see" any longer. (Before someone jumps at me on this whole thing, I am not one to pull a sub lightly... it was very sad to me that I felt left with no other option than to move on to another game. I really want this game to succeed, but I have been around for long enough and spent more than enough money that I don't feel it is worth the money any longer.)

Thanks for the responses guys. It is nice to know that I had contributed in some small way to help our community, and possibly helped someone out. I don't feel like I have done as much as many others, but if I helped someone out then I am happy with that I too was going to ride out the patch, and I suppose it isn't too late for them to come around, 2.4 isn't for a while. But given their responses I have lost hope.... I am sorry to be so negative about it. I have always tried to give BW the benefit of the doubt, but I just... cant, anymore. I never thought I would hit the day when I would leave the game because of something like this, and especially never thought I would be "that guy" that posted his frustration and quitting the game speech. I have seen many people leave the game over some tiny little change and certain phrases get passed around frequently that it is almost comical. But I really would not have pulled the trigger on this if not for the unplayability of our class (perceived or real)... Is the entire PT/VG community unable to play this class? I mean is that REALLY what they told us? (I still am in a state of denial over this... I can't believe that this actually happened... I see it... but I keep hoping I wake from a bad dream.) I get that everyone always feels underpowered in some way or another. But there is a difference between some minor quality of life issues and the entire thing being broken. As for buffs vs nerfs, I think the last "real" buff was moving TD/AP off the same CD as Sticky Grenade/Explosive Dart. Everything else has been nerfs, but I agree that most of them were warranted. If things had stayed as they were I would almost be willing to accept some minor nerfs on our pre-2.0 damage since we were starting to get a little out of balance there, but they changed the dynamic with 2.0 and gave everyone really good burst... so I would likely wager we would have been on par with the other classes for burst maybe slightly ahead, which, given our lack of survivability would likely still be somewhat balanced. But again, even with a slight nerf on that, would be acceptable. I was never asking for our class to be on top. I can live without being on top, because I am a good enough player that I will pass most of those playing the "top" class and kill em anyway (or out damage them). BTW mfourcustom, I got some serious LOL's out of your new sig.

For those willing to stick out the class to hope they change things for the better, good luck. I am just tired of it, and I don't feel like rerolling to have a better experience. I will likely keep posting for a while, especially in regard to the PTS, to see what changes we can talk them into. But I too, have given up hope of seeing anything special come around of this.

(What I submitted to their "feedback" when I unsubbed) I am pulling my sub after recent changed to the powertech class. I stuck through this crap with 2.0 hoping to see some changes. The problem was not that the game is unballanced... there is ALWAYS going to be balance issues here and there. It is how you are deciding to handle said balance issues or lack of action... The dev responses were disappointing to our class questions... maybe our questions were bad, but the devs just feel out of touch with the class. Telling people who have been playing this game since day one that it is a perception problem (a nice way a saying L2P noob) is just terrible. If we really suck at playing the game that much tell us what we are doing wrong and back it up with MATH and EXAMPLES. I know I have spent countless hours providing quality feedback, and you give me a response that amounts to L2P... that is just terrible. I have been playing since Closed Beta, I was willing to stick through all of the minor things to let you fix them in your own time (which you seem willing to do) and the game in general is going in a great direction... but class balance is ****. Seriously it was in a better place overall pre-2.0 than it is today. The only classes that are in a great place right now are OP healers, Jugg tanks, and Sniper/marauder dps. All the others while some are worse than others just are not even remotely at their level. All in all, loging in and playing the game, no matter how great it is, when your class/character sucks... it drags the rest down and drives people away. Please, for the sake of the games health put more effort into game balance and maybe someday I will be back. Listen to your players who know what they are talking about. Most all for my class have either switched classes or left the game. That should be telling enough as it is. For now, FFXIV is calling me, and it makes me sad to leave this game because it could have been so much more than it is.

Oh but wait... lets take a look over at the operative: Resuscitation Probe Orbital Strike Corrosive Dart Fragmentation Grenade Snipe (if the operative goes into cover... but who does that?) Explosive Probe (same as above) Rifle Shot (auto attack) Soooo discounting the healing abilities (hey if I wasn't going to count tanking stuff, can't count these either), I count guess what? 7 abiltiies... 2 of which are completely worthless and should never be touched... which makes a PT and an OP sit on the same level as far as 30m "options" (and yes I do count the BREZ as an "option" because it is on the same level as grapple... and NOT a healing ability) So that puts OPs and PTs at 5 ranged attacks which have SOME kind of use. http://www.torparse.com/a/353755/time/1374765726/1374766035/0/Damage+Dealt what is that? Is that an OP pulling 3200 on a dummy (compared to at best 3100 on a dummy using the Hybrid spec... pyro... not even close... at waaaaaay less than 2700) So where is the "fairness" there... we are both "ranged" classes, with "ranged" options. I don't see them taking a dramatic hit because they have "options" other melee classes don't at 30m.

You know what... just for kicks: Warriors 30M abilities: (as in both classes) Force Charge Jugg 30m (discounting things like taunt, and guard): Saber Throw Intercede Mar 30M: Double Saber Throw soooo juggs get 2 30m leaps and a single target ranged attack (which is a pretty good ability I might add Maras get a leap and an AOE Saber Throw (Which is also pretty good) So of the non-**** abilities we get DFA, Rapid Shots (auto attack), Rail Shot, Grapple. I will tell you what, I will give you all the other "ranged" abilities we have, you can just remove them from the character (or in some cases lock them to the Mercenary Class where they do serve a purpose) and give us something amazing in return. Currently as it stands, yes we have ranged abilities, by my count (again discounting the guards and taunts) we have 7 30M abilities... But they are not significant enough that I would EVER want to keep them over the option of a leap (not that I want them to just give us a leap... but you get the point). Go ahead, lock us to 10m, if that will make you feel better. Let us keep DFA as our ONE ranged ability and possibly the auto attack... and lock the rest down... and then actually make us a proper tank and melee class and stop giving us these BS "reasons" why we are amazing cause we got range!