I don't want ANY of those abilities to be turned off... just you DROP the ball if you do it. You can still use ALL of your abilities, to get OPEN FOR A PASS or clear the way for the carrier. No classes would be harmed in the making of this change. =p

I made a previous thread about this a week or so back which generated, (but without a flashy title, so it only made it 5 pages or so) and I've seen a lot of threads since -- so, I'm consolidating ideas based on feedback I received in that thread, and hope to see this thread kept alive by people who agree that some change is needed. My original post, with alternative ball-carrier ideas (from later in my previous thread) added at the end: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember playing my first, oh, 150 matches of Huttball while leveling up and thinking, "Man, this is awesome!" There was always some innate frustration from playing a class without mobility and gap closers, and getting knocked off the catwalks into the pit, and having to run all the way back around -- but I deemed it acceptable, for playing a class that had tons of utility (heals, damage, stuns, CC, etc). I got a decent amount of enjoyment out of the tug of war matches in the 1-49 bracket, many of which went the full 15 minute duration with close scores. ...And then, enter the geared level 50 bracket. Now, on my server, this warzone is what we run about 95% of the time, since the empire vastly outnumbers Republic. In the 1-49 bracket, currently you see some republic matches, since a lot of people have presumably re-rolled republic so they could experience a little variety. I've found that in the probably 400+ huttball matches I've run since being 50 (and this could be a low estimation, been Battlemaster for a while, and I've run a zillion on my alts), that the fun has been COMPLETELY sapped out of the warzone. This warzone, in it's current implementation, is completely broken when you combine PVP gear with certain classes. Now, my point is not to call for class nerfs, as I don't think classes are the problem. The issue here is the environmental hazards are no longer hazardous. Five of the Eight classes (using empire versions as examples) can completely bypass the fire and acid when geared, which often leads to premade 4-man custom 2-tank/2-guarded sorc healers winning repeatedly in 5:30 or less with six captures. Now, before this degenerates into "qq moar about class balance" blather, let me clarify with examples of the various ways that the fire and acide no longer slow down enemy teams: 1) Tanks with 22,000+ hp can just slowly walk thru the fire, and a single HOT will basically render them impervious. 2) Assassins or sorcs sprint through it, take 1 tick of damage, and come thru with full health (especially tank assassins or bubbled sorcs). 3) Juggs/Marauders/Powertechs springboard either to teammates or enemies with various gap closers, rendering knockbacks on defense nearly useless. 4) Sorc healers with rescue completely nullify skill-based knockbacks on offense or defense, and rescue works just fine through the fire. 5) Powertechs and assassins can, in effect, still obliterate certain classes with a well placed grab/root into the fire, which I applaud -- this one actually is awesome, but on certain classes, such as tanks or healers, this maneuver barely dents their health, unless EVERY single breaker/defensive spell they have is on cooldown and also not active (ala shield). In 1-49 huttball, this was good good stuff, and slowed the game down. Now, NONE of the above abilities are overpowered in and of themselves. I am not calling for ANY class nerfs, despite my ire at Sorc/Sage utility/burst/survivablilty with hybrid specs. This thread is not about that, it's about huttball at 50. The issue here, is that huttball games now cater to the premade, consisting of 4 of the 8 classes in any combination (only at 50, and only with gear) -- Powertech, Juggernaut, Assassin, Sorceror (using imperial examples). The other 4 classes can pretty much suck it, unless filling out the other 4 spots of random people, and being carried by those 4 people. Some people will argue that marauders have a good gap closer, and do great damage while being tanky, but they don't bring to the table what a jugg does, IN HUTTBALL. I've been obliterated by my fair share of marauders, so I appreciate their damage, but for winning huttball, sorry guys, you're not in the top 4. Snipers, marauders, operatives, and mercenaries all lack the survivability and MOBILITY in this high-end warzone, and it's not because the other four classes are overpowered, it's just because those 4 huttball monsters basically remove the acid and fire from the equation, and can chain cap the flag at a very rapid pace, often winning in 4-5 minutes with six captures. Sometimes faster, if you pair 2 assassins with 2 sorcs, as having four sprints on a 20 second cooldown, with rescue, and shields, makes it a buffet of ball captures. I know, that a perfect team, that also has mirror classes, can sometimes counter this. But it is in TOTAL reliance of having this "holy quadrilogy" of classes on your team also. The question isn't "How can we change the classes?" The real question is: "How can we improve Huttball?" Well, some simple ideas would be to: 1) Make fire and acid immediately proc a 1/2 second root on you, no matter how you cross through it, then apply the snare. Whether you sprint, force leap, yank someone with rescue, or just walk into it, you hit an instant WALL and are rooted for one quarter to one half of a second. I know that Powertechs and Assassins would giggle with glee at all the harpoon instagibs they could score, but it would at least slow down the scoring. 2) Just triple the damage on the fire/acid. 3) Double the size of the warzone, making teams travel twice as far. This would nullify sprint being able to cross 1/4 of the distance from mid to endzone in one cast. I still think the hazards need some form of buff in addition to this, but I would love to see the warzone size increased. I'm not suggesting that all three of those things be done, and I realize there are probably some instances that one or more of these changes could be exploited by a class mechanic that I haven't thought of, that is why they were just that, ideas. Any other solutions would be more than welcome. I just know that when I'm on defense, and get knocked off into the pit, and start to run around to get back up, and the other team scores and is ready to score a second time in the time it takes to run back to the play, that the game needs to be slowed down. It's not even fun to be on the winning team, when you win 10 in a row in 5 minutes or less, with litttle to no actual FIGHTING going on, just chain capping. The winning team in these situations just completely ignores the other team, except to perform knockbacks and stuns, and doesn't bother to even engage the enemy. To me, that's great that one team has the coordination to perform well, but it's not a good thing when they can custom build to win repeatedly, avoiding combat, and chain capping for hours at a time -- simply because the hazards are no longer an issue to certain classes. Please, BUFF the Huttball hazards and bring the combat back to PVP! I am not calling for class changes! Thanks for reading this novel, those of you that do, and any constructive comments or suggestions are welcome. If this generates some steam, we can move it to the feedback section. I just want to see if others feel this way, and are tired of rolling alts on the other faction just so you can enjoy Voidstar, where you HAVE to fight to win. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BALLCARRIER IDEAS: Another idea I just saw in another Huttball-related thread was to have people drop the ball and have it reset to mid if they used force leap, or sprint, or were rescued while holding the ball... This would be interesting, because then you would have to either PASS the ball to advance it, or have your team actually SUPPORT your tanky ball-carrier as he slowly battled his way to the opposite end of the field with the ball. If nothing was changed about the actual hazards, I would really like this. You could still use force leap/sprint/rescue, etc to get INTO POSITION to recieve a pass, or to get a teammate back into the fight, but not to physically advance the ball yourself. Juggs could still jump to dumb people, and then accept a pass, but not while holding the ball. If a stealther vanishes with the ball, it resets, why not if you try to fly 30 yards ahead by sprinting, or being yanked, or jumping -- you should fumble the ball. This would really encourage actual PVP fighting, and advancing as a team, as opposed to trying to chain cap 6 times using gap closers and actually avoiding any contact at all. I still stand by the fact that 4-5 minute 6-cap wins aren't even fun for the winning team. You spend more time in que, and at loading screens while "chain winning" than actually doing PVP and enjoying the game. I'd MUCH prefer a 15-minute slugfest, where you actually get some valor from FIGHTING for an objective -- this is why I enjoy Voidstar. While it certainly isn't perfect (getting stuck behind the door after a long *** speeder ride blows, when the other team is planting the first bomb) it definitely encourages teamplay and spltting your team appropriately, with actual offense and defense -- you can't win voidstar by bypassing combat, unless the other team just completely ignores one side. FUMBLE!!!!! The proposed: "Fumble the Ball" change wouldn't stop ANYONE from using their abilities in Huttball. You would still be able to sprint, force leap, and extricate to your heart's content.... Just not with the ball in your own hands. --Juggernauts that want to complain about this, consider: you still force leap to the moron that stands on the ledge, then force push him off, and stand there, awaiting the pass for the score. Or, you leap up WITHOUT THE BALL and stun someone, walk 5 feet to an open space, and wait for the pass. Passing requires TEAMWORK. -- Sorcerors that want to complain about this -- you can still rescue teammates and run the fire taking almost no damage ALL YOU WANT.... just NOT WITH THE BALL. You sprint through, extricate a second player, who then runs ahead for another pass, you heal your ball carrier, or stun, or knockback, or snare -- ball carrier passes to you -- you pass forward to the 2nd sprinter, etc. Still very useful, and requires PASSING and TEAMWORK. Wow, you're friggin' USEFUL! Even though you couldn't sprint through the fire while holding the ball, or extricate the ball carrier, you could extricate OTHER people, and you could sprint to get open all you want -- for the PASS, in a TEAM game. --Powertechs who want to complain about not being able to storm with the ball... See Juggernauts, but add the ability to root people in the fire reliably, guard healers, and basically be a major pain in the ***, as well as a beefy *** ball carrier -- you storm enemies, get open for the PASS. --Assassins -- nothing changes, except you can't sprint through 2 fire obstacles while taking no damage WITH THE BALL. You can sprint ahead, and get open for the PASS, or knockback the enemy defense, or CC, or just kill the **** out of people, or jump down and yank enemies down with you, or guard someone, etc, etc... You would just have to actually use your ability to run and get open, as opposed to just carrying the ball yourself while sprinting. If you want to sprint, you pass to a teammate, SPRINT AHEAD, he.. OMG - wait for it -- PASSES THE BALL RIGHT BACK! --Marauders -- your one force leap is inconsequential anyway, compared to these other classes (you only get that one thing!), but it's only fair to mention that... you would drop the ball too if you force leaped with it in your hands. Dumb people would still pay for standing on ledges, teams could still move relatively quickly to advance the ball, but you would actually have to somewhat observe the hazards if you had the ball, unless you PASS to bypass it. How would this not be a good change? And how on earth would this ruin those classes' lives? All this would do would be slow the game down a bit, and force more passing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This was the original thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=312509 Now this was a compilation of three posts within the thread, in between about 70% of the people agreeing and/or bringing up points, and about 30% spouting what a noob I am. I'd like to keep this one alive, to show Bioware that some adjustments need to be made at endgame, especially since Huttball is about 95% of what is run on the majority of servers with the population imbalance. My current favorite idea I've seen floating around is the ballcarrier changes, moreso than the fire changes... What does everyone else think? Please, post feedback, or agree, or disagree, but keep this thread alive if you'd like to see some adjustments to the warzone!

Yeah I know getting knocked off the platform when a train of sorcs comes at you happens about every 10 seconds or less, but I have a Juggernaut also, and leap is on a 20 second cooldown, and I usually just jump back up.... three times a minute. It's a delight when I play my Juggernaut in Huttball.... and completely OP. I can score at will if I play while guarding my buddy's sorc. Every person in my guild has a sorc, powertech, or juggernaut alt, simply because it's a blast to play them in Huttball. Now, that same situation of getting knocked off is a real drag on any class without short cooldown gap closers. And before people say "well don't get knocked off noob" you have to understand, that even as a lethality operative, the majority of our attacks have a 10 yard or less range, so the only way to avoid being knocked off, and having to run all the way back around -- is to not ever get on the catwalk. It's nothing for someone to leap to you, force push you off, and you get up, snared, and begin the long trek back around. I've had instances where a 4-sorc team, scores, grabs the ball, and is ready to score again before I can run my *** all the way back around and up the side or middle ramp. I've played every class in the game, and Huttball is just WAY too easy when I'm on any class with movement abilities. I'd GLADLY support ball-dropping upon force leap/extricate/sprint when on those characters, just to see the games slow down, and to see more PASSING. And to me, any form of PVP that actually discourages fighting to win, is flawed. In Huttball, it's actually disadvantageous to kill the enemy. It's better to knock them down, root them, and pop sprint with the ball, and pray your teammates DON'T kill them, because it's better to leave them in the dust than have them respawn and come back at you. The games that I win the fastest, are when on my assassin, teamed with a juggernaut and 2 sorcs. We win in 4-5 minutes almost every game... and it's NOT fun at all. Sure, we get our dailies done, and we get wins, but we spend more time in the que than in games. There HAS to be a way to slow the games down in the 50+ Battlemaster brackets. I WANT my juggernaut, assassin, and sorc to DROP the ball if I have it and sprint, leap, or get extricated. I WANT to be forced to leap up, knock an enemy off, and wait for a pass from a teammate, instead of just running across the acid, straight to the pit, to leap up and score myself. It's simple -- MAKE US FIGHT EACH OTHER AND PLAY AS A TEAM MORE TO WIN. And buff the stupid fire and acid, make it snare more, or do more damage, or root for 1/10th of a second, just to stop the sprinting across it. I'm tired of getting the ball, and being able to jump to someone every 20 seconds with it, then jump to a teammate. It is WAY too easy, and no challenge at all.

I couldn't agree more -- running Huttball 95% of the time sucks ***, period. It could be the best thing ever, but with no variety, it gets REALLY old. I play my repub alt several times a week, just so I can see other warzones.

Yep, I agree, then people could still use ALL of their abilities, and use them to protect the carrier, or get into position for a pass FROM the carrier, instead of just forming 4-man movement groups, where passing or fighting the enemy isn't even really needed. Make the fire DEADLY, or make the ball drop when you get extricated/leap/sprint. My last three matches of Huttball were over in 5 minutes or less every time. We just won one in 4 minutes and 20 seconds 6-0, because we had 7 of the 8 players with ways to bypass the fire. (sorc/assassins galore, sprinting and pulling, with guard of course). I HATE four minute games, win or lose -- medal count sucks, commendations suck, and you hardly FIGHT the enemy. You spend more time listening to Baron Deathmark's idiotic voice and loading, than actually IN THE WARZONE. They have GOT to find a way to slow down the game at Battlemaster/Champion gear levels, because the fire sure doesn't slow anyone down.

This thread is not about class utility, or class damage, or class balance. Also, I'm not sure why you keep trying to call me a fresh 50 noob, when I've played every class in the game except marauder, and my main has over 500 friggin Huttball matches, and I played three builds of the beta. I guess you didn't read my posts. I'm not complaining about ANY of the abilities in and of themselves, I'm not calling ANY class overpowered -- I'm saying the ball moves too fast, due to hazards not slowing 75% of the classes down. It's about advancing the ball and using teamwork, and people circumventing the map hazards exceptionally fast, moving the ball EXTREMELY fast -- the fire isn't HOT any more, and the acid is less dangerous than a lukewarm Jacuzzi in Battlemaster, Champion, or even Centurion gear. It would be nice to think of the ball as a 200 pound weight, that you can't jump, sprint, or dance the Lambada while carrying. What do you do? The other 7 people on the TEAM treat it like a sport, get open, move for passes, use those very same abilities to GET OPEN, control the field, and advance the ball. It's not like one person is saddled with the ball the entire game and would not be able to force leap ever. You would just pass the ball to a teammate, force leap to the idiot on the ledge, then he passes it back. But, go ahead, completely ignore my point, and call me a fresh 50 noob again, if it makes you feel better. I really don't think anyone who reads my posts vs. yours will believe your asinine claim. I even said in my original post that this thread isn't about classes, it's about warzone tuning. I never complained about getting owned, or jumped to, or pulled into the fire, or knocked off, etc -- I spoke of ball movement and game length, and lack of actual combat. Again, post suggestions, or reasons you think the suggestions won't work, that is welcome, but coming in here and spouting vitriol and/or insults on a thread that was started with the intent of gaining feedback doesn't make me look like a "noob" -- it only makes you look bad. Again, please keep any feedback or suggestions coming. I'd be happy to hear some.

The proposed: "Fumble the Ball" change wouldn't stop ANYONE from using their abilities in Huttball. You would still be able to sprint, force leap, and extricate to your heart's content.... Just not with the ball in your own hands. --Juggernauts that want to complain about this, consider: you still force leap to the moron that stands on the ledge, then force push him off, and stand there, awaiting the pass for the score. Or, you leap up WITHOUT THE BALL and stun someone, walk 5 feet to an open space, and wait for the pass. Passing requires TEAMWORK. -- Sorcerors that want to complain about this -- you can still rescue teammates and run the fire taking almost no damage ALL YOU WANT.... just NOT WITH THE BALL. You sprint through, extricate a second player, who then runs ahead for another pass, you heal your ball carrier, or stun, or knockback, or snare -- ball carrier passes to you -- you pass forward to the 2nd sprinter, etc. Still very useful, and requires PASSING and TEAMWORK. Wow, you're friggin' USEFUL! Even though you couldn't sprint through the fire while holding the ball, or extricate the ball carrier, you could extricate OTHER people, and you could sprint to get open all you want -- for the PASS, in a TEAM game. --Powertechs who want to complain about not being able to storm with the ball... See Juggernauts, but add the ability to root people in the fire reliably, guard healers, and basically be a major pain in the ***, as well as a beefy *** ball carrier -- you storm enemies, get open for the PASS. --Assassins -- nothing changes, except you can't sprint through 2 fire obstacles while taking no damage WITH THE BALL. You can sprint ahead, and get open for the PASS, or knockback the enemy defense, or CC, or just kill the **** out of people, or jump down and yank enemies down with you, or guard someone, etc, etc... You would just have to actually use your ability to run and get open, as opposed to just carrying the ball yourself while sprinting. If you want to sprint, you pass to a teammate, SPRINT AHEAD, he.. OMG - wait for it -- PASSES THE BALL RIGHT BACK! --Marauders -- your one force leap is inconsequential anyway, compared to these other classes (you only get that one thing!), but it's only fair to mention that... you would drop the ball too if you force leaped with it in your hands. Dumb people would still pay for standing on ledges, teams could still move relatively quickly to advance the ball, but you would actually have to somewhat observe the hazards if you had the ball, unless you PASS to bypass it. How would this not be a good change? And how on earth would this ruin those classes' lives? All this would do would be slow the game down a bit, and force more passing.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=312509

The "ahh another noob who just turned 50 needs to L2P" response indicates that you didn't even read my posts. I offered several ideas, i never said anything about nerfing any abilities, and I am FAR from a fresh 50. And as for the insenuation that I want my "OP Sorc" to sit back and profit... I don't even play a Sorc, I have one that I got to level 11 a month or two ago, in my stable of alts. I play several characters, but my main is valor rank 59, should be Battlemaster in a day or two, if I bother to log on. I have run HUNDREDS of warzones, if not over a thousand. I was in beta for months, and warzoned my butt off in that too. I posted tons of Beta feedback, which, the beta community would attest that a large amount of feedback was largely ignored. So, please, don't NOT read my post, then get on here and say "L2P you fresh 50 noob" and vomit on my thread. I posted this thread here for people to discuss the pros and cons of making some adjustments to the map, either in the form of buffing the hazards, or in changing a couple of the possession rules. I WELCOME constructive criticism and feedback. And as for the games ending 1-0, if the ball dropped on force leap, etc -- I don't think so, leapers can still leap, blast people off, then run 5 feet and get open for a pass, or sprint ahead, and rescue a teammate, then get open for a pass. You could still use ALL of those tools to advance the ball, just not WHILE holding the ball. The only class this would benefit would be snipers, really, and most people agree, they need a little help anyway. Other ranged classes could still be pushed off, or leapt to and knocked off, if they position poorly. Heck, if it did lower the scoring and we had some 3-2 slugfests -- aren't those the best kinds of games anyway? Where you actually win a grueling 15 minute match by one point?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=312509 There is the link to the thread I referenced in my last post.

I started a thread about environmental hazards and ball possession in endgame Huttball, and I would love some feedback about potential adjustments to slow the game down. As it stands, environmental hazards are barely speedbumps in high end huttball. I posted a couple of ideas, curious what people think. And I really really like the earlier poster's idea about fumbling the ball if you force leap/sprint/get rescued -- this would force teams to use those very abilities to either GET OPEN for a pass, or to bring teammates back into the fight, rather than to advance the ball 6 times in 4 minutes. Moving as a team and passing requires way more skill than just force sprinting thru the fire in tandem/leaping thru it/sprinting and rescuing across. There is much more detail on the subject in the other thread -- not trying to hijack, just would like to get some ideas over there, not start a discussion here. I'm all about looking into what people are unhappy about and trying to find solutions.

Another idea I just saw in another Huttball-related thread was to have people drop the ball and have it reset to mid if they used force leap, or sprint, or were rescued while holding the ball... This would be interesting, because then you would have to either PASS the ball to advance it, or have your team actually SUPPORT your tanky ball-carrier as he slowly battled his way to the opposite end of the field with the ball. If nothing was changed about the actual hazards, I would really like this. You could still use force leap/sprint/rescue, etc to get INTO POSITION to recieve a pass, or to get a teammate back into the fight, but not to physically advance the ball yourself. Juggs could still jump to dumb people, and then accept a pass, but not while holding the ball. If a stealther vanishes with the ball, it resets, why not if you try to fly 30 yards ahead by sprinting, or being yanked, or jumping -- you should fumble the ball. This would really encourage actual PVP fighting, and advancing as a team, as opposed to trying to chain cap 6 times using gap closers and actually avoiding any contact at all. I still stand by the fact that 4-5 minute 6-cap wins aren't even fun for the winning team. You spend more time in que, and at loading screens while "chain winning" than actually doing PVP and enjoying the game. I'd MUCH prefer a 15-minute slugfest, where you actually get some valor from FIGHTING for an objective -- this is why I enjoy Voidstar. While it certainly isn't perfect (getting stuck behind the door after a long *** speeder ride blows, when the other team is planting the first bomb) it definitely encourages teamplay and spltting your team appropriately, with actual offense and defense -- you can't win voidstar by bypassing combat, unless the other team just completely ignores one side.

1) This thread is not about powertechs. 2) I have run literally over 500 huttballs across multiple characters, this thread is not about strategy and positioning for "controlling the catwalks" which is, of course, imperative. The fact that the advent of ubergeared expertise capped endgame characters, or even tier 1 characters -- can almost completely ignore the hazards. 3) If you didn't read my thread, why say "I didn't read this, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong" -- how about if you don't plan to read it, don't click it. And if you do click it, then decide it's too much text to wrap your brain around -- and therefore decide not to attempt the daunting task, maybe you shouldn't comment on it? The intent of this thread was to try to generate an intelligent dialogue about fire barely being a speedbump to a team in endgame. Ideas are welcome.

Again, I agree that an innate root would benefit powertechs and assassins, but as it currently stands, if I have even one CC breaker and even 1 HOT on me, with 90% champ gear (rank 59) and no BM gear, I can just walk out of the acid slowly and live. Now the fire is a bit more deadly, and if my breaker isn't up, then yes, a powertech can death sentence you over and over. Now that is as a hybrid spec lethality operative with only 15k hp... you add a shielded sorc, or a tank, or a healer, and if they have CD's up, they can survive it. I realize it benefits those two classes to add an innate half second root, and that is why I am open to other suggestions. But, as it stands, the fire is hardly a threat to sprinters/leapers/pullers/tanks. As a result, the games frequently only last 5 minutes while the other team is constantly behind the play against the chain-capping guarded team. I just want there to be some sort of deterrent to walking headlong or leaping through a 2000 degree wall of fire.

Well those were just some quick ideas off of the top of my head, I know my guild and I have talked at great lengh about our gripes in vent and they all agree. I'd definitely be open to some more ideas about how to slow down the game of Huttball, and make it into an actual PVP-centric game as opposed to the "avoiding pvp to chain cap" direction it's gone into at endgame gear levels. Having to actually pause and consider the fact that the wall of fire might be HOT before you dive through it would definitely help... =D