Raiding is suppose to be different than other parts of the game, not just scaled for more people. In SWTOR there is nothing different in the feel of the game when doing an operation as compared to a flashpoint. It's just scaled larger. It doesn't feel like you are playing a different game; it just feels like another instance. The idea behind raiding, at least from my EQ driven perspective, is that raiding should be something that is epic. It should take a very long time to prepare for. You should have to tackle logistical nightmares. You should be able to carry a number of players. Raids should be an event; not just somthing you do because you're at max level. I understand your entitlement attitudes, it's what destroyed the face of raiding. Back in Vanilla/BC WoW and EQ1 success required good leadership, and leadership is always something that is lacking. As a leader I am simply frustrated that they stole the part of MMOs that made MMOs different from just another multiplayer game. There was a time that being a good leader meant something; now? I just need to lead 7 people through content. That really takes nothing from a management perspective instead it puts the ownership entirely on the players that you bring with you. 16 mans? Please, thats a small raid. I want 30+ man content. I want to plan and organize large groups and work as a team to be successful. I don't want to have to worry that every single person on the raid is executing. I want your wife, who sucks, to come and raid with us anyway because you are pro. Whats wrong with a small part of the game requiring a lot of effort?? Whats wrong with giving guilds a purpose that isn't controlled by the game? What wrong with only getting a new piece of loot every month or so? Taking 2 groups to kill stuff is not a raid. It requires nothing special at all to accomplish. You don't need a good leader to kill things with 2 groups, you need 2 groups of players that aren't blind. That's about it. There is a solution, it just would require more money for Bioware to accomplish with very little monetary gain. They could create content for 40+ people that was just a slight step above what you could get with 8 man raids. They could create this content that would require you to have at least 2 full groups in Nightmare gear before you could even try and bring 10 groups to kill it. They could do that but why? It won't make them anymore money; it would just create something for the entitlement crowd to complain about them missing out on. --------------------- As far as my chicks in the raid comment, well case in point with the replies from the ladies. All offended at a minor little tongue in cheek comment; and of course the nerd force rises up to defend you. Nice little micro example of what girls can do to a raid force. Overreact.... get offended too easy... make guys all defensive over them.... one word.... DRAMA But really, I do love chicks in the raid, I just don't like them when I have to rely on them for us to be successful. It's not just the girls, there are plenty of guys who are chicks in the raid as well.

I have, but apparently you have not. You seem to be under this impression that in order for 70 people to raid, that all 70 people have to be equally geared. It seems foreign to you to consider that perhaps 10-15 people could be well geared, 10-15 could be moderately geared, and 10-15 could be poorly geared. You've been WoWed. Convinced that in order for raiding to be fun you have to be an important piece of the puzzle; that you can't just raid for social reasons. That's just not been my experience; I've been playing for a long time and have traditionally been able to organize large groups of people to accomplish common goals. I think that the ability to manage and lead people is a HUGE factor that most simply are not willing to admit; because they are not very good at it Raiding is more than 2 groups; maybe it's 3+ or maybe it's 10+ but it's certainly not 8 people in 2 groups.

I could live with that, but lets stop calling 2 groups of people a raid. It's an operation for sure... In Everquest there were 6 people in a group; in this game there are 8 people in a raid. I think we've surpassed any stretch of sensible middle ground. What we have now is the elimination of raiding and the insertion of "more content for all". With this line of logic it's a wonder that people are able to play organized sports, have card games, go out on dates.... I'm speaking on behalf of myself who has been playing MMOs for 12+ years and has 2 kids, a wife, a job, coaches football; yet I found time to plan my gametime around my life. I'm not alone, in fact I represent a healthy guild of about 40-60 people who do the exact same thing. You're the typical "it's not fair" crowd who, for whatever reason, lacked the ability to structure themselves or their guild in a way that allowed for raiding AND allowed for people to have a life. We called it; having a good guild, and having a good guild made up for all the silly things that since then MMOs have tried to throw at people to make a guild worthwhile. Since they all but destroyed the real reason for having a guild. I''m far from alone, people like me rarely complain on the forums. You don't seem to understand the fact that raiding with 40 is a much different expereince than raiding with 8. I'm sorry that you never got to experience the fun

I'd say design content for 25, but allow people to bring 40. Not everyone is a hardcore_superpro_player and I understand that. So you can't design content for 25 pros like in WoW with no room for error. You need to be able to have the chicks in the raid, the less skilled player, the little brother. They need to be able to come just for the social fun about it; and not be the target of a raid leader's ire when then make a mistake. This can only happen if you design encounters (and loot drop rates) for a certain number; and then let people take MORE with them if they so decide.

I'm familiar with the line of thinking "more people get to experience more content that makes it better". Well then, why require people to group at all in order to experience content? More people who get to experience it; right? Time had nothing to do with gathering 50-70 people to raid; if you were intelligent and efficient about it. If you had the intelligence to plan ahead, and the efficiency to effectively plan; you would have 50-70 people all online at the same time during a certain day of the week. It required more planning, more community interaction, more cooperation, more compromise, ultimately more preperation. These are things that build a community. Actually that's another blizzard insert into the raiding world. The concept that every_single_person on the raid was accountable in the same way. Instead of allowing 10-15 "great" players carry another 20-30 good players and allow another 10 players to come along for just the social fun of it. It's sad really that the enjoyment casual players (like myself) experienced while raiding in games is constantly cheapened by the entitlement players. The players that feel they are entitled to experience the entire game, every corner of it, simply because they paid for the game too. There is a fundemental difference in taking on an encounter with 40-60 people compared to taking it on with 8.

Is not raiding. I'm not sure how it happened but I blame Blizzard, the whole idea that if you take two groups of people to kill content that you are now raiding. It's as if the cries from the anti-raid people have been heard for so long; that they forgot people like me who would like to do content with large groups of people. The entire reason to play an MMO is to interact with large groups of people. Yet, when end game raiding allows for 8 people to progress through the entire game it seems to lead to the question "Why even have guilds at all?" Guilds were formed back in the old days of MMOs (Everquest for example) with purpose. You needed a guild for progression. The guild that you selected most matched your game attitude, your progression desires. There were some guilds that were literally years ahead of other guilds; but that was OK because progression was clear. You had to complete A, to move to B, in order to move on to C and D. Somewhere along the lines a large number of people started to convince the greater MMO world that only the most hardcore, focused, no lives players could possibly organize 40-60 people to clear content. That the skills of asking everyone to sign on at a certain time, on a certain day, were lost to the greater population of players. Well I miss it. I miss taking 46 people to kill content designed for 40; and bringing a few extra people later on because we can. I miss the journey into dungeons with a single raid geared group; dungeons that previously required two groups in order to venture into but now raid progression granted others the reward of doing this less. I miss the raids that were half social event, half serious raiding, but a whole lot of fun. I miss the part of the game that was categorically different than all other parts of the game. I'm enjoying SWTOR and I'm enjoying the 8 man operations. I just hope that Bioware isn't looking at these two group events and thinking "Look at our end game, it's fantastic!" because it's not. Taking two groups to kill content, 8 people, is not raiding. Taking 4 groups to kill content, 16 people, might be able to pass as a small raid but even that is a stretch. Blizzard failed the gaming community when it all but eliminated raiding and turned everything into group content. It' sad to see their direction of destroying raiding carried on by the next gen MMOs. There was something special about Everquest raids; 40, 60, 72 and above person raids. They created a real sense of community, a real sense of "epic" rewards for accomplishing the goal. I hope that Bioware considers this and considers trying to revive the raiding of old because if not; the game is not going to continue to hold peoples attention. At least not mine. Would love to hear some developer ideas on what the end game means to them...

Well, trash is still part of a raid so you can't exactly preclude it as if it's not. Also, as it seems you are aware of SOA is harder on 16 man than in 8 man. Finally, if you lose 1/4 of your raid (4 people) you can still win if you have a geared team; but the question to be asked is why would you lose anyone more on a 16 man than an 8 man raid? The answer of course, is that 16 man raiding is harder. I really wish people would stop referring to two groups downing content as raiding.

You're suppose to raid for progression. The whole idea of raiding comes from the idea that some people want more from a game than just leveling. They want to get to the end; and then face a tougher path so that they may progress to the next tier of content. Your attitude, which I think is a bit of a farce, must come from that WoW mindset of raiding where so much loot flowed that it really didn't matter and in the end as you describe loot only made content easier the following week. I assure you though, that's not the concept of raiding.

Hello, I apologize if this has already been addressed. I did my best to search around for information that talks about the long term vision for encounters that require more than one group of players. Is there intent to implement large scale content in the game? Things that will require small communities in order to achieve; and thus offer greater rewards once done? As much as I have enjoyed the 8 man operations; I find myself missing the type of game activities that required people to organize in large groups to accomplish big goals. Here is my suggestion: Design some large scale operations that would be for 40-60 players. Design the content for 40 but allow people to bring as many as 60. This should be a linear progression from 8 and 16 man raiding. Loot dropping should scale in superiority beyond what 8 and 16 man offer, as well as require loot offerings from this content in order to progress. I hope this suggestion will be taking with consideration that taking two groups to kill content is not exactly raiding.

Nice post! THank you for taking the time to write this up.

Thank you OP! I thought your post was well written and while I disagree with your points, it was an entertaining read. As were the comments it brought forth. I appreciate you giving me something to do these final minutes that the servers are down for!