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Vecke

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  1. Concerning Artoo, we really have no idea what's going on in his little astromech mind. He might have never met yoda. I mean, Anakin loved him, but droids are basically tools. I doubt much time is spent introducing tools to your friends. As for Yoda, I'm sure he was just lying. I mean, lying to Luke seemed to be Yoda's and Obi-Wan's favorite pastime.
  2. I don't think you're imagining it. My wife and I just came back after a several-month break and we were both very taken aback by how long the load screens are now.
  3. I'll say it again. I've never met a little kid who didn't love Jar Jar. So I have no beef with him.
  4. I didn't mind the ewoks and I didn't mind Jar Jar. Every little kid I know loves both Jar Jar and ewoks. Sometimes we forget that Star Wars - at its core - was a kid's movie. Sure, it was designed for adults to enjoy too, but it was originally for the kids. Star Wars became what it is because of kids. People argue about that now, but if you were a kid when the OT was new (which I was), you'd have no doubt on this. Every friend I had back then was absolutely obsessed with all things Star Wars, ewoks included. The only parts of the entire saga (prequels and originals) that I really hate are the love story scenes in Episode 2. The writing in those scenes is just more than I can handle.
  5. I don't really see how progress from war is applicable to the question of whether or not the Sith is evil. Good things come from bad things all the time. Progress doesn't automatically make something good. Psychology has made incredible strides in learning about mental illness by studying mass murderers and serial killers. That doesn't mean serial killers are good. If one country goes to war with another country because their respective leaders want power or oil or land or slaves, yes, there will obviously be technological progress because of that war. It still doesn't mean war is good. It still doesn't mean the millions who died so those leaders could gain power died for a good cause. It just means a sliver of good came from an evil thing.
  6. I totally agree. I've yet to see an argument saying the Sith aren't evil that isn't really just an argument saying evil doesn't exist. That's a different debate altogether. In a world where evil exists, the Sith are clearly evil. Now, the argument that the Jedi are good... that position is a little harder to defend. Clearly, the Jedi are not evil and clearly their actions are for a greater good.... but the Jedi often run into the gray area of "do the means justify the ends?" But the Sith... yeah, if evil exists, they are it.
  7. That's a tricky question. On the surface, yes. Any Jedi can leave the Order. Dooku left (along with 20 other Jedi, I think). They aren't required by doctrine to stay in the Jedi Order. But the ambiguous part is that they're not given that choice until after they've been completely indoctrinated by Jedi dogma. As babies, they don't have the choice. And they're raised to believe the life of servitude is the only life worth living. So by the time they're old enough to make that decision, it's not really a decision they'd make. Most circus elephants are kept restrained by a single small rope. This rope is not strong enough to actually restrain the elephant, but the elephants rarely break free. They don't even try. Why? Because for the first several years of their lives, they're kept in place with a large chain that is strong enough to hold them. By the time the handlers switch to the cheaper, weaker rope, it doesn't even occur to the elephant that it can break the new rope because the chain taught it breaking free isn't really an option. So it doesn't even try to break free. Jedi are tethered to the Order in a similar fashion.
  8. I'm not going to continue this particular debate because there's absolutely nothing I can say that will alter your opinion in any way. And that's fine. I just have a rule about forums: When an impasse is obvious, stop debating. And with all due respect, if you don't think the Jedi live a lifetime of servitude, there's really nothing to debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree there. However, please let me state - again - I do not think the Jedi are evil. I do not think the Jedi lifestyle is evil. I have clearly stated - over and over and over - that I think the Jedi are good. There is a giant difference between "morally ambiguous" and "evil." In nearly every single post I've made about this, I've specifically said I do not think they are evil. So I just wanted to clear that up.
  9. First of all, stating that a practice has historical reference doesn't negate the validity of arguing against the practice. You might think it's fine to take a child and insert them into a life of servitude. That doesn't mean those who disagree are wrong. It means they don't agree. Qui Gon says outright to Anakin, "Becoming a Jedi is not an easy task, and even if you succeed, it's a hard life." He wanted to make sure this was what Anakin wanted. And yet the Jedi choose that life for young children, based purely on their genetics. You really think there's no moral ambiguity to that practice? As far as mind control, Qui Gon used the force to convince Boss Nass to give them a transport to Naboo. You can parse words all day, but it was using the force to influence another sentient creature's mind so he could take something that didn't belong to him. He tried the same thing with Watto. Watto made it absolutely clear that Republic credits had no value on Tatooine, yet Qui Gon tried to get him to take them anyway, so he could get the ship parts. Neither Watto nor Boss Nass were evil, yet Qui Gon used the force to trick them into giving him things that didn't belong to him. Again, I'm genuinely surprised that you don't see any moral ambiguity here. And I'm sure I don't have to go into lying here. Obi Wan looked Luke right in the eyes and lied to him about his father. He can spew "point of view" nonsense all day, but he was lying. And the black belt analogy isn't applicable because a black belt only kills in defense. Their "license" doesn't permit them to kill in the name of Justice. They can't just go and kill a president because they think he's evil. Yet Mace was going to kill Palpatine, not out of self defense, but because he knew Palpatine was evil and dangerous. Luke told Obi Wan outright that Vader was still good, but Obi Wan didn't care. He made it clear to Luke that his only option was to kill Vader. Lucky for the galaxy, Luke didn't follow that advice. Look, I'm actually on your side on this debate. I think the Jedi are the good guys. I really do. I just happen to think it's intellectually dishonest to just blindly disregard any and every criticism of the Jedi. They were flawed. Their system was flawed. That's stated outright in the Episode III novel. Yoda realizes during his fight with Palpatine that the Jedi lost because they had refused to evolve and grow. He realized the dark side was winning because the Jedi had become too entrenched in dogma while the Sith evolved.
  10. As luck would have it, I'm pretty familiar with Shoalin. My brother was a shoalin instructor for years. That said, I appreciate the effort to make sure I understood the reference (I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky way). And again, I'm not saying the Jedi are evil. I don't think they are. But (IMO), there is definitely an "ick-factor" to taking a child from his home and raising him in complete and total servitude, based entirely on that child's genetic disposition. You may disagree, and that's fine. But I think there's merit to opposing a practice like that. It's a noble cause, yes, but there is a strong argument against those practices. I mean, it's a requirement for the Jedi that if a child is old enough to have any choice in the matter, he's not allowed to join them. Anakin was 10 years old and was "too old." He was only accepted because he was the chosen one. But I cannot stress enough (as I've stated in every post I've made) that I don't think the Jedi are evil. They're not. And I do think the Sith are unquestionably evil. I'm just saying the Jedi have some practices that skirt the line between right and wrong. They control other people's minds. Even good people (Boss Nass wasn't bad). They steal. They raise children to serve their cause. They lie. They kill. They literally cheat (Qui Gon cheated at the dice game to free Anakin). There's an example of each act above in the movies. Sometimes, more than one example. There's very little the Jedi won't do in the name of the preserving their idea of justice.
  11. That's a good point and I concede that it was a poor choice of words on my part. But it's still got a pretty high ick-factor, no matter how noble the cause. Based purely on genetics, a child is being assigned to a life of servitude and isn't given a choice in the matter until after he or she has been completely indoctrinated by the order that took him. I can't think of a real-world analogy to this practice that isn't pretty high on the "that's messed up" scale. Don't get me wrong, here. I'm on the "Jedi are not evil" side. I'm just saying some of their policies and activities definitely skirt the line between right and wrong.
  12. The Republic was breaking up and had no laws to prevent it. That was the entire point of Episode II. Because there was no law to prevent it, Palpatine convinced Jar Jar to put forth a proposal to give Palpatine the power to prevent it. Once that happened, Palpatine was able to commission an army and actually go to war to stop it (with an army he and his former master had ordered made). The good guys (i.e. Bail, Amadala, etc) wanted to convince them to stay through diplomacy, not war. But Palpatine gained so much power, the other senators were afraid to stand against him. The reason Palpatine rose to power was because there was no law against a planet leaving the Republic. The corrupt senators gave him the power to stop it, which was the beginning of the Clone Wars.
  13. While that shows the weakness of the Republic, it's actually an argument against your point. Episodes II and III happened because a Sith Lord orchestrated the construction of that slave army, then took over the Republic, gained emergency powers, and commissioned the army. Sure, the Republic didn't stand against him, but it only happened because a Sith Lord made it happen. This wasn't a Republic action. It was a Sith action. Palpatine orchestrated all of this. It was not going to happen until Palpatine manipulated them into giving him complete control. There were thousands (2000, I think) of Senators who signed a petition to stop the war and move to diplomacy. The result was Palpatine declaring them enemies of the state. Those Senators were the founders of the rebel alliance.
  14. I think that's a very good assessment. There's a difference between good and "not evil." The Jedi obviously aren't evil. But I don't think they're good either. They're manipulative, they have no problem lying, they have no problem using the force to basically take over another person's mind, they take children from homes as babies and pull them into the order, and many other things. But they genuinely do it for peace. Honestly, if I'd been in Luke's place, it would have been very difficult to stand against the Emperor. Ben and Yoda lied to Luke, withheld vital information from him, and demanded that he kill his own father, regardless of whether or not he was still good. They made those decisions because they were fighting for the good of the galaxy, but still... that's some harsh stuff.
  15. One question for the "Sith are not evil" folks: How do you define evil? Because it seems to me that most of the "Sith are not evil" arguments are really just "Evil is a point of view" arguments, which is kind of outside the scope of the debate. The question of whether or not the Sith are evil is really predicated on the assumption that they exist in a fictional universe where evil is a real thing. And really, if you accept that evil is a real thing in the Star Wars universe and then step away from the existential arguments, it's hard to deny that the Sith are evil. They were created to be evil. They were designed to be evil. Every aspect of their culture, their appearance, their voices, their dialogue is dripping with the traditional concepts of evil. I'm kind of surprised that this is such a big debate. Recognizing that the Sith are evil is easy. Like I said earlier, you really have to do some mental gymnastics to define them as anything else. The better question to debate, IMO, is this: Are the Jedi good? To be clear, that's not "Are the Jedi evil?" That would lead to another existential debate about the nature of evil. But accepting that Star Wars is a world where good and evil are absolutes, answering the question of whether or not the Jedi are good is a real challenge. Spotting the evil characters in Star Wars is easy. Spotting the good characters... that's the real challenge.
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