Carnage was like that for its entire lifespan until they removed it in 5.6. Carnage became more popular after 1.3 when they took Gore off the GCD (and nerfed the duration to 4.5 seconds to compensate), but you could still technically do your Ravage -> Scream or Berserk -> Massacre x2 -> Scream even in 1.0 -- it just took 1.5 extra seconds due to the GCD. They changed Carnage again in 3.0 so that Gore lasted only 3 seconds, which actually made the rotation a lot easier. Smash wasn't nerfed at all for over two years, but I don't think many people played it until its buffs in 1.4. Basically from 1.4 to 2.7, Smash was played by almost everyone. Warzones were basically Smash and Bubble Stun -- which actually alienated a lot of PvPers from playing the game at all.

It's not getting a bad rep for sustainable DPS. It's getting a bad rep for what it used to be -- the premier burst spec in the game.

Get to 60.

I'm rather astonished. Just when you thought the hole couldn't get any deeper... Some advice, Devs, actually listening to feedback might actually help you guys out. Or you guys might as well delete the entire AC since in about a month or two the only ones left playing it will be the newbies who think "TWO LIGHTSABERZZ." Oh wait. Aren't we at that stage already?

I think the main takeaway from this relatively long (36 pages) thread that I find out of the norm, especially for a gaming thread on class balance, is that the community is displaying an unequivocally stand against Bioware's stance that Marauders/Sentinels are fine or somewhat fine. Even players from other classes don't disagree. That's the most surprising part, and should be more indicative of the state of the class than anything else. We want changes. And not just a few months later -- that is what you told us a few months ago -- but by 3.2. Patch 3.1.1 was supposed to be the patch which we were looked at, and that was a month ago (with the announcement that we were being looked at a few weeks before that). With the upcoming 3.2 changes further being so marginal and misdirected that most Marauders/Sentinels wouldn't even care if they were put in or not, that's almost three months where we were supposed to be "fixed," and that's disregarding the feedback given in 3.0 beta (AND disregarding the forum posts on the dismal state of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman since mid-December). Could an actual time frame be provided or are we stuck waiting interminably for changes that do absolutely nothing to help the class (as has been the case of the past two patches)?

Give it up folks. Re-roll another class or unsubscribe until 4.0. The best players who have played this game left last spring/summer. The "top" players currently playing this game at the "top" levels are most likely players on teams facing vastly inferior competition. If there was an actual Team Ranked scene, we wouldn't have a spot. Many other classes do exactly what we do but better. AP/Tactics is vastly superior to any of our burst specs. So is Marksman/Sharpshooter. So is Lightning/Telekenetics. Our only DoT spec (Annihilation/Watchman) is the worst DoT spec in PvP. You get the idea. Stop using your "data" that "shows" we can play it at the top levels. SWTOR hasn't had an active Team Ranked scene since the first month of Ranked Eights. Stop. Just stop it. This actually needs further explanation, otherwise it's simply just more smoke and mirrors. I thank the Dev Team for attempting to tone down the current over-performing classes, but unless you actually majorly nerf those classes, they'll still stay ahead of Marauders/Sentinels. From what I can tell, you're attempting to shift the three strongest Advanced Classes to the left in the spectrum of classes and their relative strengths while maintaining the current standing in the middle. What this means is this: unless you nerf those classes (read: every class) to the Marauder/Sentinel baseline (which would inevitably cause an exodus similar to the one we suffered) we'll still remain the worst class in PvP. So, 4.0? Quite honestly, you guys want a quick fix to the Marauder/Sentinel class? Take your most recent change on the PTS for Juggernauts/Guardians (4 second CC-immunity on leap) and give it to Marauders/Sentinels while giving the Force Exhaustion CC-immunity to them. I see no conceivable reason why a class already stronger than Marauders/Sentinels actually get the mobility buff that Marauders/Sentinels sorely need. You fix two birds with one stone; a strong class (Juggernaut/Guardian) gets toned down a little while a class sorely lacking mobility (Marauder/Sentinel) actually gets some. To be honest, this fix would cause you less headaches and grey hair from dealing with the community. Most (if not all) players would applaud the change and instead of a few dozen pages of negative feedback you get another dozen pages of happy players. If you're afraid of "balancing" issues, well, you were already prepared to hand a stronger class than Marauders/Sentinels this buff. Why not give it to the weaker class? So, three birds with one stone? There isn't in this case. Both Sentinels/Marauders in PvP/PvE want greater mobility.

Hey Sentinel and Marauders. Let's all start afking in Warzones/Ranked so that Bioware will buff us based on their "metrics"! I apologize in advance Eric, but this is actually one of the most out of touch posts in a long time. I'm going to politely rebut every single major point provided in this post, just because I've perhaps never seen a more misguided and plain out incorrect post by any developer team of any MMO or game. Heck, I even resubbed just so I could reply to this. This is perhaps the most interesting line. Any Sentinel/Mara currently playing the game knows that Annihilation/Watchman is a joke of a spec for PvP. The only reason you might observe that they're performing somewhat well is because, quite literally, only a few fairly good players use that spec - and they use it quite sporadically (a hail to the good ol' days of Annihilation/Watchman pretty much). I guarantee you if you pull up your metrics, the spec % of Annihilation/Watchman of all other specs is less than 0.5%, and within the Sent/Mara ranked specs most likely <5%. Given the dearth of Ranked in this game, I'm not sure how you can draw any sort of conclusion from, presumably, a insanely small sample size. Or any statistical test in general. These numbers don't provide much evidence of anything. Why not dig deeper into that win percentage. How many players of that win percentage are old players? How much of an exodus of "weaker" players has affected the Sentinel/Marauder class as a whole? Which part of that 82.6% win rate is one team continuously farming a far weaker team? I count myself as a fairly good Marauder, and quite honestly, 9/10 I recognize the other Sentinel/Marauder on the opposite team simply because they've been playing for 2+ years. Most of the players who can't make Sentinel/Marauder work simply don't play it. I know three or four players (who have been ranked top 5 in various seasons) who used to have a Marauder alt not even touch the class because of how useless the class has become. To put it bluntly, the win percentages are a result of skewed data. The effect of high quality Marauder/Sentinel players on the win percentage is immense. Here, class population loss vs. retain of highly ranked players or a comparison of total number of hours played on Marauder/Sentinel vs. pre-2.8 Marauder/Sentinel (you can normalize this to overall game population if you want) will be indicative of this, of which I am fairly certain. I have gone nights where I was the only Marauder on both teams. And this is in Warzones. You don't need statistical analysis to know something is wrong here (kind of interesting tidbit, as Sentinel/Marauder was formerly perhaps the third most popular class). For many players, there is little to no incentive to play the class, and even good ones believe that the class is atrocious relative to almost any other class/spec in the game. This is another line which simply shows that you guys actually don't PvP on Sentinel/Marauder. I'm not saying this in a patronizing way -- it's the truth and you guys should own up to it. Fury/Concentration outperforms Annihilation/Watchman. Your use of "metrics" is interesting here because that's an unequivocal truth. The main reason why your data might show otherwise is that Fury/Concentration is a popular spec for beginning players. Contrary to your spec goals provided in the original post, Fury/Concentration has a easier time than Carnage/Combat simply because its a priority system. Most of the original Marauders still stick with Carnage simply because it has been the "to-go" PvP spec for the past two years. With so few Marauders/Sentinels left (and what remains mostly of more veteran players), the effect of this on win percentage is immense, meaning higher than actual win % for Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman than Fury/Concentration. You might have noticed some confusion on the PTS when many Marauders/Sentinels were wondering why Fury/Concentration was chosen to be buffed instead of fixing Carnage/Combat or Annihilation/Watchman. Metrics can be wrong, as it is in this case (or in any case in your post, in general). If we are performing at your desired DPS markers than you might want to buff us a bit, because (I'm going to repeat this ad nauseum) good players are significantly pulling up your metrics. If I go on my Sin I will guarantee you I'll hit 2.2k in any given game. Ditto for Lightning. Ditto for Virulence. Ditto for Lethality (well, perhaps 2k). While on my Mara I count any game above 1.8k a decent game. There is a clear DPS discrepancy, and I imagine if you looked at Marauder players who have multiple other classes and normalized that data, you would see Marauders/Sentinels under-performing. These "strategies" take no time to learn. You have made no significant changes with the class (if anything, made each spec easier with 3.0). Adding a heal onto a defensive cooldown does not change our game-play whatsoever. Neither does immunity on Force Crush/Exhaustion. It is difficult not to read these final lines with a sense of disappointment. I'm sorry SWTOR Combat Team, but you have failed miserably. I have to say, good luck to whatever is left of the Marauder/Sentinel community, but I think I'm done with the class for a bit. Why spend so much effort for such little gain and no possible hope for a better result in the future? The only thing this post accomplished was to crush the hopes of a few thousand players. For the sake of the future of SWTOR, I hope the rest of your "updates" aren't as misguided as this one.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Yes, I can go out and do 2.6-3k damage in a Warzone/Arena if given the right team/comp. The thing is -- it is far harder to perform well, not to mention the dozens of other variables that need to be perfect in order to even have a shot at a good game, relative to other classes. No, the spec isn't as broken as to be completely nonviable. It is, however, a pretty ****** class to play. It's unenjoyable and the work you put in in order to even make the class seem kind of okay seems retarded.

I like this idea; a 15% proc chance would directly correlate to at least a 4.5% damage boost for Carnage, which isn't so bad.

These are all good QoL changes that do not go far enough. A few notes: In most scenarios, Undying Rage is still used as a last ditch cooldown. Sure, the no health lost is nice -- but honestly, in almost every possible situation with a healer/tank, the old Undying was more than enough to escape death. The extra minute is just, interestingly, Bioware's attempt to "balance" the class around some weird double standard that ended up making an alright buff (not that amazing in the first place) somewhat mediocre/negative. Bioware giveth and taketh away. Really, the Mara utilities needs to be looked at as a whole. I agree that the Leg Slash investment is too large, and the simple fix would be to just revert all changes back to pre-3.0. About 2/3rd of the entire Utility tree is less than useless, and a majority of those could be remade to help Mara survivabilityl/cc-immunity/self-heals/whatnot. You're putting too much thought into what has traditionally been one of the hallmarks of Carnage. Predation is fine where it is right now. Divorcing it entirely from the Zen system a) marginalizes one of the most fundamental aspects of the class and b) why not just give Maras a *********** force speed then. The QoL changes that you suggested are perfectly fine, but honestly, trying to do so is tantamount to improve the quality of life in a village in Ethiopia when other classes are in a penthouse in New York. The entire class needs a review, from damage output to survivability. You know there's something very wrong with the class when Jugs get a 1.5 minute Lay on Hands while Maras get a pitiful 3-minute Divine Shield. In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy doing 2k dps/100-200k protec/200k healing on my Jug that just turned 60 2 days ago. There really is no comparison.

The Undying change is an outright nerf. I've lost count how many times the extra minute on Undying ****ed me over, The days where you could rotate cool downs correctly, with a healer of course, and take 1 - 1.5 million damage (yay focus fire) are over. Vengeance Juggs already have a buffed Ravage - and a buffed ravage is going to do little to bring Maras up to the damage output of other classes. Even a 25% damage buff would just mean an extra 2k damage on an 18 second CD. That 18 sec CD is, of course, delayed for 6 seconds in Carnage (and lower in priority in the other two specs anyway), so you'll probably use it 15-20 times in any given Warzone. That's not even close enough to bring Maras up to par. In the next patch all three specs of Maras are still going to be doing the least damage out of all specs/classes in the game save Concealment. On the side topic of Juggs, they don't really need an increase in damage. I've been doing 1.4k dps in lowbies even while playing him half-assedly, and that number usually goes up to around 1.6-7 if I actually play it correctly. That number is about the 25th-40th percentile of my games as Mara -- but that's with 1k less strength and who knows how many secondary stats, along with the fact TTK in Lowbies is far shorter than 60s thus giving a sustained damage spec like Vengeance a disadvantage. Jugs already outdpsed Maras pre-3.0 and 3.0 only enlarged that gap.

Nah. Undying is fine for its role as a last resort CD. Putting too many vital abilities on one 3-minute cooldown isn't smart, especially for PvP.

I actually had the opportunity to pass on an aggregation of ideas to Tait (most of them ideas from this forum), who supposedly passed it on to the Devs. No changes from that quite lengthy (9 pages, double spaced) article made it into the game yet though.

Then...you are missing the point entirely. Every class is viable in the game, its just how viable they are relative to other classes. I agree with your post in spirit. But I don't think many Maras/Sents are insulting the devs, much less attacking them personally (the occasional "**** the devs are so bad" aside). The situation really hasn't gotten there....yet. The state of the Sent/Mara forums is quite simple to explain really. The lack of helpful change in 3.1.1 crushed a few thousand players' dreams of the class ever becoming viable for the foreseeable future. That boiled into frustration, especially as there were hundreds of helpful posts on how to fix the class. The tone in most posts is one of frustration. Not hurtful intent. Edit: Did not read the recent posts. I guess you're right.

I'm not totally sure why you people even try. Bioware buffs/nerfs on a 6 month - 1 year basis. Best thing for you to do is to unsub until the buffs eventually hit. Might take two years though, as that was how long it took for Sages and Sorcs.