Updated 10/31

Patch 2.4 comes out October 1st, still have spots open!

Looking for people to fill out a 16 man raid. HM DF/DP cleared, looking to get everyone geared and do 16 man NM "secret" boss. Raid times are 8:30 - 11(11:30) Eastern on Wednesday, Sunday and Monday. Looking for DPS, maybe a healer but everyone may apply Whisper anyone from Rude Dudes or Rude Boys (Imp side) in-game or send me a private message or mail in-game to Stew.

If all it's going to be is still ONE auto-crit, that cooldown better not be above one and a half to two minutes or that would be a complete waste of redesign. If they want to make it more like Force Potency I would be ok with over two minutes if the cooldown had mutiple charges.

Let's put in their terms, ehem, "We are sorry your combat team is stupid and think that the players who actually PLAY the game, and not just right stuff down on paper, are wrong. Please except our sincerest apologies for how terrible the combat team is at listening to it's community. I would love to see them, THE COMBAT TEAM, on the PTS playing arenas with classes that are clearly not up to par." Thanks

Rude Dudes haven't been raiding for almost 3 months but we will be returning soon. Might have to settle for 8 man for a while though. As a fellow GS love your engineering videos paowee but I find it rather counter intuitive that a ranged spec can only do max damage in melee range, /dumB.

Lack of burst damage is the biggest problem imo but an execute certainly helps with that considering the ones that exist hit very hard. I personally think Fire Pulse needs to be auto-crit when the target has Gut Bleed on them, like Sages work with Weaken Mind/Turbulence, and/or a pure damage buff to Fire Pulse (even if it's only 5%). Also HiB needs to be buffed (I would say like 15% or give back the extra armor pen) for all the specs to have sufficient and consistent burst damage, not just burst damage when Battle Focus is up.

Edited the doc.

In PvE yes I would call Riot Gas a defensive cooldown but for PvP I would go as far as to call it an over-glorified AoE snare but in reality the only way it would be effective in PvP is if it acted kind of like an AoE Electro Net that would prevent camo, rolling, leap, etc. w/o doing damage but still incorporating the accuracy debuff and snare. I would be ok with a longer cooldown of course because this would make it a considerably powerful cooldown but as is it just doesn't do much since people can move out of it quickly if they aren't stupid. I can definitely agree with the collective bargaining of defensive cooldowns but Reactive Shield was more of an unfinished thought. The real point was meant to be along the lines of how each tank had practically the same DR cooldown but if Vanguard was going to be left in the dust concerning other cooldowns then RS better be one hell of a cooldown and certainly better than its counterparts (Warding Call, Battle Readiness) which as you pointed out kind of is but not necessarily, more along the lines of for a VG tank 25% extra DR is enough. Anti-F/T would be great but that was another point of the post that I don't think VG need another copy cat of Resilience (Saber Reflect), but what they really need is something unique otherwise it just get's to the point where it's "oh this tank has this cooldown, I deserve something the exact same as that or it's not fair." A perfect example is the change to Battle Readiness (I do not think above quote was used as a complaint, this is just an example), maybe Shadows didn't really expect to get a similar cooldown but they did which makes it seem like that is Bioware's answer to complaints about tank imbalance, "just give them the same thing and call it something different." Incidentally maybe one of the easiest way to give anti-F/T is to take an idea from Commando's talents and make Vanguard Diversion have an anti-F/T ability talented into, of course you would have to take away the drop in threat as well.

Disclaimer: this thread is not about Vanguard Tanks being terrible or flaming how Guardian Tanks are OP; that being said comparisons will be used, mostly Guardians as a point of reference considering they are definitely the strongest tanks atm. And yes it is a long read, thoroughness seems to be the only way to get through to Bioware. If you are familiar with the inherit imbalances skip to the suggestions. Vanguard Tanks Status in a Nutshell My personal opinion aside, the general community views tank usefulness as follows: PVE: Guardian, Vanguard, Shadow PVP: Guardian, Shadow, Vanguard So obviously Guardian tanks are the strongest right now and Vanguard/Shadow are considerably behind in many regards. This thread is meant to brainstorm ideas to make Shield Spec unique and fresh, as well as making Vanguard Tanks more appealing FOR BOTH PVE AND PVP. As is, Vanguard tank spec is the most lackluster and unoriginal. Vanguard Strengths: AoE Damage, Passive Mitigation, Overall Consistent Damage Vanguard Weaknesses: Practically non-existent burst damage, No finishing power(ie. execute, under 30% damage increase), Defensive cooldowns very lackluster, Utility not unique and a little lacking in protecting healers Some Tank Comparisons Talent Examples Guardian Guardian Talents are very well constructed as of 2.0, where many talents provide more than one useful addition. Daunting Presence: Force Leap has 50/100% chance to finish the cooldown on Force Kick. In addition, Saber Reflect last 1 second longer and generates a high amount of threat to all enemies within 30 meters. Shield Specialization: Increases shield chance by 2/4% and reduces the cooldown of Saber Ward by 15/30 seconds. Beacon of Might: Reduces the cooldown of Warding Call by 30 second, increases damage of Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash by 15%, and reduces the cooldown of Riposte by 1.5 seconds. Inner Peace: Increases the duration of Enure by 10 seconds. Increases elemental and internal damage reduction by 5%. These are not all the talents that have more than one useful addition but you get the idea. Vanguard There are only two talents that have more than one useful addition. Energy Blast, which is very similar to Guardian Slash so those two pretty much don’t count as both are very useful 36 point talents. The other is Supercharged Ion Cell which gives extra damage to Ion Overload, High Impact Bolt the ability to spread the dot from Ion Cell and that dot the ability to not break CC. The remaining multi-purpose talents have useless additions. Soldiers Grit, besides augmenting your Adrenaline Rush, gives you 5% alacrity during Battle Focus which is garbage. Guard Cannon, besides giving your Shoulder Cannon the ability to heal, gives 5% extra threat to Shoulder Cannon and Explosive Surge again a practically useless addition. Conclusion Bioware gave great depth and uses to Guardian Talents while additions to Vanguard Talents seem to have been an afterthought. I’m not saying all talents, and tanks for that matter, should be the same, merely stating that Vanguard talents lack imagination or willingness to give Shield Tech anything special. In the Guardian Defense Tree ALL of their defensive cooldowns get a reduction in time and/or improved effectiveness. That’s not even mentioning the talents which improve ALL of their CC abilities (and give an extra one). In the Vanguard Shield Tech Tree one out of Vanguard’s measly two defensive cooldowns gets augmented slightly and not even a time reduction, and slight improvement on Vanguard CC (mostly snare). Abilities and Utility Including Defensive Cooldowns and CC Guardian 6 second AoE Mez Free (No Cost) AoE Snare Two 4 second hard stuns that do not need to be channeled (force stasis 4 sec. with pvp set bonus) Force Push Saber Ward Saber Reflect Warding Call Enure Enemy Leap (With cooldown reduction on damage taken) Friendly Leap Challenging Call Specced to give allies moderate absorb bubbles Blade Barrier Blade Barricade Guardian Slash DR 5% Accuracy debuff to enemies Armor Debuff AoE Focused Defense (at least it’s about as useful as AR) Force Kick Interrupt Extra speed when guarded person is attacked Riposte Vanguards Enemy Leap (with extra speed only if attacked within 4 seconds after leap) Reactive Shield Adrenaline Rush Harpoon (Enemy Pull) Battle Focus (admittedly the only thing Guardians Tanks don’t have is an offensive cooldown) AoE damage snare (damage can be helpful or hurtful) Hold the Line Neural Surge (2.5 sec AoE hard stun) Riot Strike Interrupt Riot Gas Ranged Taunts 4 second hard stun Shoulder Cannon Stealth Scan The amount of active defensive cooldowns isn’t even close. Guardian has two 4 second hard stuns, an AoE mez and a very strong single target knockback while Vanguard has only one 4 second hard stun and one 2.5 second AoE hard stun (which is the only thing unique to Vanguards compared to other classes) but no AoE mez and no knockback. Both have an enemy leap but Guardians is definitely on a shorter cooldown because of the talent Battlefield Command. Guardians have a friendly leap and Vanguards do not. Both have lackluster healing abilities which are only effective when other defensive cooldowns are popped at the same time. Riot Gas is a strong cooldown but even so Guardians put an accuracy debuff and armor debuff with a single move which is used often. And Guardians put a bubble on friendly targets with AoE taunt. Vanguards AoE snare is only free and pretty much cost efficient after you Storm (Enemy Leap) while Guardians is free all the time. Vanguards AoE snare does do damage but this can be a negative thing if you want to pre-apply snare to targets which are mezzed. To sum up the only abilities that give Vanguards any type of advantage compared to a Guardian are Harpoon(a pull), Hold the Line(Root and Snare Immunity), Stealth Scan and Battle Focus. Everything else Guardian does just as well or in most cases better. Main Concerns PvE: In PvE the Vanguard tank is very much viable and sits in a pretty comfortable spot. The main concerns are Adrenaline Rush needs to be buffed and/or redesigned, and the lack of Anit-F/T cooldown that the other tanks can completely negate mechanics with. (Although in perfect fairness Hold the Line does allow VGs to negate some knock-back mechanics that the other tanks cannot) PvP: In PvP Vanguard tank (and in fact dps as well) is by far the weakest of the three tanks, it has no niche that makes it desirable compared to the other tanks, especially with field respec so a shadow will always be tank in huttball making VGs not unique. Removing field respec would almost require teams to bring a VG except that a Shadow tank in tank or dps gear would definitely be better at node guarding and still better for protecting healers, but then again this is another tangent which has little to do with changing the class. Vanguard tanks need something unique that makes them desirable compared to the other two tanks, especially in ranked. Shoulder Cannon was a great idea/start but as I mention below has many flaws and needs to be buffed/changed. The easiest way to give VG tanks more value and uniqueness is to improve the unique abilities they already have through the talent tree, these abilities being Stealth Scan, Harpoon, Hold the Line, Riot Gas and Shoulder Cannon. Some of these abilities are already augmented in the tree but overall VG tanks need these abilities augmented even further to be considered useful in top level PvP. Also Vanguard tanks lack burst damage, in general really. Yes we have Battle Focus but when BF isn't up our crit is crap and we don't have any surge talents to augment BF to actually provide burst. Furthermore we have no auto-crit abilities, such as Shadow's project proc, or an execute (which both other tanks have). Battle Focus does not = burst damage if your surge is 0 and is on a 2 minute cooldown which is not very impressive. Suggested Changes (May affect more than tank spec) Adrenaline Rush: The changes to AR in 2.0 were a good idea to give Vanguards a type of invulnerability similar to Force Shroud and Saber Reflect. However in practice it is not very effective except when used with Reactive Shield. Only healing the trooper to 30% still leaves him susceptible execute attacks which can burst through the healing done. Which brings me to my next point the Shield Spec talent Soldier’s Grit should be baseline for all troopers, in other words above 30% health it will heal 2% of your health every second after triggered. That should NOT be a talent, it should be how this underachieving defensive cooldown works (in other words baseline for all troopers). Furthermore upon triggering AR (by going under 30% health), AR should give the trooper a 10% healing received buff for the duration which is 8 seconds. These two changes would give this defensive cooldown the necessary buff it needs to be taken seriously. On top of that the talent Soldier’s Grit would have to be changed to improve AR or something else. Shoulder Cannon: This is the only ability in the game that can be used while stunned making its utility potential very good. The problem with SC and Shield Spec is that Bioware decided to make SC another defensive cooldown. While it is nice to be able to heal yourself while being stunned they have created a trade off system. SC utility (i.e. stopping caps) and burst damage are completely negated if you have to use it as a heal and vice versa. Another problem with SC is the load time. The Charged Loaders talent in the Tactics Tree makes SC load 4 missiles immediately and gives them 15% extra damage. This should not be a talent for the exact same reason Soldier’s Grit should not be, this should be how SC works as a baseline. SC in its current state is a joke, while Guardian tanks get Saber Reflect as a new ability all Vanguards get is a little extra damage, big whoop. It needs to load at least 7 missiles and have that 15% extra damage to make it even noticeable. Also for tanks this will make it possible to use a few missiles for healing and a few for utility/slash damage if desirable. Reactive Shield: There are many ways this talent could be improved for tanks and possibly all troopers (but Shield Spec especially needs better defensive cooldowns). Shadows as of 2.0 acquired the talent which makes Battle Readiness increase DR by 25% for 15 seconds and an immediate 15% of health heal, 2 minute cooldown. Guardians have Warding Call which reduces all damage taken by 40% for 12 seconds, 2 and a half minute cooldown. Reactive Shield is 25% DR for 15 (18 with pve bonus) seconds, 2 minute cooldown. RS compared to the two other DR cooldowns is fine but the problem is it's VG's/Commado's only effective defensive cooldown. As such it either needs shorter cooldown and/or a buff attached to the Shield Spec Tree. Harpoon: Harpoon is where we get into new ideas for Shield Specs effectiveness at guarding healers in pvp. Shield Tech should be given a talent which allows them to friendly pull with Harpoon. This would allow them very unique utility compared to the other two tanks for getting to their healer or saving someone who is stun locked, but mostly aimed at giving Vanguards another way to effectively guard their healers. Guardians have 2 leaps, one of which gets them directly to a friendly target and reduces that targets damage taken, and they gain extra speed every time their guarded target is hit. Shadows have a force speed that breaks roots and snares, resilience (which allows a shadow to simply walk back to his healer no problem) and phase walk (which I understand still has some problems). Vanguards have Hold the Line (which only lasts 6 seconds giving 30% move speed + root/snare immunity) and an enemy leap (Storm). Vanguard needs another option and if it’s going to be worse than Guardians in terms of pure CC, it needs something special of its own. Hold the Line: Should have 2 (at least) extra seconds added to it by making it an addition to a pre-existing talent (i.e. Defensive Guards which only serves to give 4% defense atm). Stealth Scan: The Defensive Measures talent should either make Stealth Scan last as long as the cooldown or make the cooldown as short as the Stealth Scan. This is one of the only abilities that makes Shield Spec unique compared to other tanks and should therefore be prominent in its use. Riot Gas: While a fairly good PvE cooldown, in PvP it is little more than a lasting AoE Snare that can be moved out of which incidentally also completely negates the reduction of accuracy. To be effective in PvP it needs to completely root targets for the duration forcing them to use CC Breaker, Roll, etc. in other words important defensive cooldowns/escapes. There are many other things that could be done by pretty much copying ideas from the Guardian Defense tree but I/we want the class to be unique not an exact copy of Guardian just because it’s the best atm. Thanks for reading I appreciate feedback (constructive or otherwise it's still a bump)

I have d/ced from a warzone without disconnecting from the server and it only happens after I have taken a respawn rez. Has this happened to anyone else? I don't know if this is a known issue to Bioware but it is very annoying.

Fine if you really want that to be its "niche" then let's make all the talents that affect everything else like 30% armor pen and 15% surge only affect smash eh? Or take out the talent where you do 9% more damage after every smash? People act like focus spec is still a one trick pony which is stupid. Everything crits hard and has a decent chance to crit because of the talents in the tree, and guess what crit damage can't be shielded, it is only affected by armor BUT oh wait focus has 30% armor pen ALL THE TIME. Arguments about smash being shut down by taunts and guards and tank defenses, SO WHAT, all the other dps have to deal with the same stuff and their heavy hitters aren't all auto-crit, let alone aoe. If you want it to be a one trick pony fine, but the point is Andrew is trying to nerf the class without killing it, and keeping single target dps the same but nerfing aoe dps some is a reasonable nerf.

I would definitely expand question three to include all specs lack of burst damage which is huge in pvp, especially vanguards lack of finishing power (ie. execute, strong burst finisher). Burnout just doesn't cut it in pvp.

Looks like you got pretty much everything covered, but to go along with question three you could get into more specific fixes with the dps specs such as balance having almost no burst anymore which could be addressed by increasing force regen allowing for project uses again or adding onto the mind crush talent possible making it all burst and no dot. As for infiltration, the problem being sustained dps, maybe you could ask if they have considered reducing the internal cooldown on breaching shadows which would make that have more overall damage and allow you to use force breach at three stacks more often.

I don't even play a sage but I think my biggest complaint (for dps sake) would be that balance shadows got the 15% extra damage during burn phase and sages didn't. Hardly seems fair and would be a strait forward question as to why they wouldn't give sages a burn phase unless they already answered that.