Excellent point Temeluchus, this one's the one I agree the most with. One could argue that Revan and Malak meeting the Emperor did have its expected effect on them - they turned into sith. As for the fight in the Revan novel, I believe they did fight the true body, although it's irrelevant, really. After a lot of thought on this (I find myself being slow sometimes XD), I believe it's inevitable that the prophecy becomes self fulfilling. I have been thinking of multiple "what ifs?" lately, and have concluded that the reason we fight the Emperor is because Scourge acted as he did because of his vision. He basically paved the way for our encounters (present and future) with the Emperor. Whether Revan, Meetra and Scourge fought the true body or not, Scourge's actions alone are what bring us to the final battle, and what will likely have us beating down on the Emperor again.

Thanks for this clarification, I read your other thread and it made sense then!

Incredible, I say incredible work! Bravo on a job well done. I've got a couple of questions though, more will follow probably. I have to say I lost you a bit there. What do you mean with "self-fulfilling prophecy". Isn't such a prophecy where the feedback from it results in it coming to be? Also, while on that: Isn't it established that Scourge, Revan and the Exile met the true body? You speculated on them having met the Voice, but how could that be? Revan has certainly met with the original body at least once at any rate, when he and Malak found him, correct? So isn't it bizarre that he fell for a duplicate body? My take on all of this, is that we probably didn't fight the battle Scourge envisaged and thus will fight him again.

The Jedi Knight's story is certainly before the Sith Warrior's isn't it? Don't know much about SW, but from what I've heard:

It should also be considered that the Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior (not sure about the latter) have seats on the Dark Council.

Why people even bother to mention the Empire's honesty about being evil, is quite beyond me. They're goddamn evil, at least those leading them are. As for the OP. Unless you're not living on Earth, I though I'd add that that's how politics work. The politicians behind them in many cases have to "backstab" them, or they risk greater consequences. One operation failing is minute compared to the destruction that could happen should open hostilities commence. Just because Havok is an elite squad, doesn't make them any less expendable. Claiming the Empire holds the moral high ground because it's leaders are honest about failure's ramifications (which 95% of the time is firing squad and an unmarked grave, if any) is a stupid notion.

If you'd tell me back in the day, that I'm elitist, I'd die laughing. Is it elitist to tell you the truth? You're constantly putting words in my mouth. When did I tell you you're "bad"? I told you, that it seems you don't follow instructions, which is true. For several pages people told you what you needed to do. I did the same, referring to the other person who said he'd quit, as well as you untill I found out you did beat him. Never said anything demeaning to you considering your inability to kill him. I totally understand when someone is new to this. What I don't accept is acting like a whiny kid, on the forums. The thread was made because someone said Valis was unbeatable. People proved he isn't, and gave instructions. Some made nice, friendly posts about it Others were jerks(and those can show themselves away). You just came here and began whining how the game's too hard and you can't beat him. When you were given help, you just brushed it aside, and continued ranting about how the game's too difficult and how I'm an elitist from WoW who considers myself above you, when I did infact post advice on the fight, so that you and others could benefit of off it. And yet I'm elitist, according to you. Also, one other thing. Where in this game did you grind something exactly? I levelled solely through questing - never had to grind a single mob. As for Nar Shadaa, unless you quit the area, the moment the class quests ended, there's more than enough gear for both. And even if that wasn't enough - there's also bonus series missions, which you could try your hand at.

You must have confused me with someone who gives a damn about your WoW-derived hate. I love both games, I play both. Yes the damned game is similar. It's an MMORPG. It was bound to have the typical EQ format. What, you thought BW would reinvent the wheel? And yes, it is the stupidest thing ever. It's the thing a spoiled, entitled brat would say. There I said it. Threatening to unsub, because you don't want to follow directions, nor plan out your fights in advance is WAY too foolish. Yes, any Guardian who is capable of following directions CAN beat him. It ain't hard AT ALL. Unless you've been vendoring your and Kira's gear, AND ignored the friggin' tactics provided all over this thread (granted some people post just to boost their e-peen), you'll kill him. Unfortunately, I don't have a Sentinel, so I can't really help people with them, but having seen one in action, I believe it's possible albeit more difficult at that certain level due to survivability. Anyway Esquire, I believe you killed Valis. Everybody pretty much told you the same, follow tacts, or level up and faceroll him either way. Weren't we right? Do you still believe you were justified in saying you'll unsub. when apparently you didn't try any of it.?

Seriously, quitting a sub because you can't kill a boss, is the stupidest thing ever. Getting past the thing that most people who've answered the thread are underleveled (not doing sidequests etc), following tactics provided by us and/or levelling up a bit can help a great deal. Any JK can solo him by 24 due to Force Stasis - JG have it a bit easier due to Saber Ward+Soresu Form, and even more so by level 26 due to Force Push. Just use your interrupts on his big moves, blow defensive cooldowns early and use Heroic Moment, and/or a stim if needed.

Thank you for this excellent answer. Well said.

But why do you identify Vette's torture as sexual violence? It's beyond me how the OP, and if I'm reading this right, you, think shocking her is a sexual.

I would call asking for censorship of game content anything but subtle. Except for saying the game lacks ramifications for the players' actions(and I agree with him there) there's nothing else in the OP's posts that indicate more.

Tamaranis, I get that you support the OP. I give you, the first sentece of my post: Comprehension fail? I said that I AM as a matter of fact, summarizing what others said in the thread, and adding my own take in it. I'm unsure what non-sequitur is(something latin clearly) but as a matter of fact yes, the fact that something IS optional has great meaning. Optional content CAN NOT be rated. You may have noticed how someone posted ESRB's rating. Torture of constrained individuals with lightning is mentioned. There are multiple instances of this in the SI story. It also fits with Vette's condition, she's a slave after all. No mention of sexual abuse.The adolescents who the OP tries to defend so much (hey I still was one a few months ago) have choice in the matter of torturing Vette. If they so choose, they can be disgusted, or fascinated. It's their call. Not the ESRB(whose role is advisory after all), not anyone can make it for them. The sith being evil also has meaning in my arguement. And I specifically mean the sith, because there are many Imps who aren't evil (PCs can be included). The OP said of his expectations of BW as being high, yet he says they didn't deliver, because he was sickened by the aforementioned torture. He was playing sith warrior. Being a bastard is expected of, and encouraged by, sith. You can't tell me of expectations, of (possibly) flowers and kittens, when you were playing the "bad guys". And yet, being sickened, or generally having emotions generated from one's actions in the game, means the devs did a good work with the story. They moved you. That's the whole point of a story. It's captivating and moves each of us in a different way. The fact that the OP was sickened by this, is not bad, it means they did well. Why he would want that content removed(and that is censoring it) is beyond me. In the end, if he thought that was wrong, then yes, as others said, he should reroll. By the way. Torture of a woman, anyone for that matter, regardless if he/she's beatiful or ugly, is NOT sexual. Saying otherwise is perverse, torture, in and of itself, is wrong. While yes, he didn't say torturing males is acceptable, he did never answer to those who told him there is male torture. Ignoring this looks (to me at least, maybe he doesn't intend this) like he considers Vette's torture more important/relevant, because she's a woman. Again it doesn't matter who is tortured. A similar situation happened with another very popular BW game. Yeah that one. And people who hadn't played the game developed a flawed perception of the game because of similar posts such as the Kotaku one, not to mention that the news in the US mentioned it, with outcry from the gaming community. In any case, anyone who wants to make a point, should search/look it up first. You can't go around saying "Hey this game has torture" and overlooking the fact that it's neither rewarded, nor forced upon the player. If they went for the fact that gifts will fix her disposition towards you, yeah I'd be fine with that. I think that's terribly silly too. But the Kotaku author said he wasn't looking for this sort of "emotional engagement"(hating himself for torturing her). Well I'll be damned. He had guilt for torturing her, when he conciously chose too. I can't be the only one seeing the stupidness in this? My last point stands. I totally agree with the OP there, and I would have something like that implemented right away, if it were possible. Losing companions wasn't put in the box, for the sake of gameplay (Oh noes, my tank/healer is gone; what am I to do? xD) but BW probably has content like that, unreleased.

I read most of the thread, so I'd like to summarize key points the OP evaded, while answering (for the 53 pages of the thread) to himself, mostly. - You can choose whether to use the shock collar on Vette. Having watched a video containing most of the instances in which Vette is tortured specifically so I could reply, I can confirm that THERE IS NO SEXUAL ABUSE of her, at any given point. As said a page or two back she actually keeps the collar, and might use it with the SW, if in a romance. The torture happens, either because the PC wants to make a point, or simply for the kicks in what I've seen. Since the player CAN and MUST choose whether he wants to see this content, there is absolutely no reason the ESRB, or PEGI or anyone would change the rating. It IS possible to torture her, but it's not, required, nor encouraged by anyone. The CHOICE part is especially important in this arguement. The OP claims children shouldn't be able to see this content, when they can choose whether they want. They might be better off for doing so, because they can learn from the depravity of the Sith. - Most Sith are inherrently evil(Lord Praven is an example of one who isn't). That means their actions can be, by real world standards, completely illogical. They torture, kill, enslave, and worse because they can, and even find pleasure in it. Even non-Sith are content with such activity, and encourage it. The Empire as a whole is a society where evils such as genocide are fully acceptable, and thus the title of the thread makes total sense for Imps. That means it's to be expected that when makes DS choices, they'll be evil. Like really evil. Best example so far for me has been Major Bessiker and son, Balmorra, SI storyline, won't give any spoilers, but I was near amazed at how depraved it all was. Nearly had a maniacal-laughter moment myself. Don't really know what the OP was expecting, when choosing DS choices as an Imp. - Male on Female torture is: BAD OH MI GAWD WUT DID I JUS DO?! Female on Male torture: Nothing to see here, move on. I haven't seen the OP adressing SW torture of Quinn(is it Quinn, haven't played a SW yet). I know for a fact that my SI has tortured equal amounts male and female NPCs, probably more males too. Why do we only look at Vette's torture again? Just because she's Twi'lek and female? Ridiculous. I think the OP's problem is he has a Vette avatar here. He really should change it to trollface. Also please, cut it out with "my journalist friends and I" and other such rubbish. You gave us Kotaku FFS, and along with it sites/blogs, commenting WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME, on the damn Kotaku article. For shame. If you're really bothered by choices YOU made in the bloody game, choices YOU knew would be evil, and have to QQ in the forums instead of rerolling or something then you're beyond help. Only thing I agree with is lack of consequence for such actions. Since the thread's mostly about Vette's handling, perhaps she could one day try to kill you in your sleep or backstab you. That would be interesting.