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View Full Version : Make Biometric Crystal Alloy Not BoP


Mikeydecoy
02.14.2012, 02:41 PM
Forcing someone to run heroics for even a chance of getting one to make Rakata reusables, and then having to get 2 more if you want the "set", is absurd.

Either make it not BoP so I can buy them, or make a way to obtain it via PvP.

I'm not looking to hear if any diehard carebear tells me that my idea is bad for x reason, because it doesn't pertain to you and you should have no say in it. I'm also not looking to hear "TOR is a story driven PvE game with a PvP minigame" because I don't care and it doesn't matter how you play the game, it matters at least in the business sense that Bioware can accommodate the 2 biggest customers who the game is advertised for, PvEers and PvPers.

There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.

I've had a plethora of complaints about the game but I'm not one to cry about things or ragequit, clearly I am still playing. In spite of the fact that my AoE stun doesn't function, all my gear is stacked with useless accuracy, and Surge got nerfed, I still can enjoy the game.

But adding on top the fact that neckbeards who can and want to devote enough time for and enjoy PvE on top of PvP should get a boost in PvP simply because they can get a use out of their Crew Skill, which should inherently be usable by anyone who has it maxed, is downright terrible.

Rebeldad
02.14.2012, 03:01 PM
I just read up to the carebear thing. Whom are you calling a carebear? your the one wanting stuff made easier for you. Seems to me you might be the carebear here.

cyvaris
02.14.2012, 03:02 PM
Well if you don't want to bother with a good 1/2 of the end game you could use the lower level Biochem reusables, you know the ones that don't require PvE mats.

Qilz
02.14.2012, 03:04 PM
I've had a plethora of complaints about the game but I'm not one to cry about things .

Really? Your entire post is a cry about not wanting to do PvE but still wanting the instance and raid drop to craft. Sorry, you'll have to leave the fleet. It's ok, it's not that bad out there.

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 03:13 PM
Really? Your entire post is a cry about not wanting to do PvE but still wanting the instance and raid drop to craft. Sorry, you'll have to leave the fleet. It's ok, it's not that bad out there.

I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.

nametakenz
02.14.2012, 03:21 PM
Forcing someone to level all the way to 50 before they can be a level 50 is also retarded? same logic.

Things arent handed to you

JohnnyKelowna
02.14.2012, 03:30 PM
I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.


FINE If you want PvE gear from PvP than I want PvP gear from PvE. Why should I get pummelled by BMs over and over again to get my PvP gear?? You think that's fun? Give me a way to get the best PvP gear without having to PvP.

or are you a hypocrit... *squint*

_Zorth_
02.14.2012, 03:31 PM
Forcing someone to level all the way to 50 before they can be a level 50 is also retarded? same logic.

Things arent handed to you

He isn't asking for anything to be handed to him, He's asking for another way to obtain it. He doesn't like doing PvE, He wants to get BCA another way other than to go find a group, do a flashpoint then roll for the item.

Let's switch the scenario, If the BCA dropped from champion bags. Would that be fun for you?.. (Assuming you are a PvE player). And if you asked for another way to obtain the BCA other than having to grind PvP matches, Would you like being called a noob that wants the game to hand stuff out to him?

_Zorth_
02.14.2012, 03:32 PM
FINE If you want PvE gear from PvP than I want PvP gear from PvE. Why should I get pummelled by BMs over and over again to get my PvP gear?? You think that's fun? Give me a way to get the best PvP gear without having to PvP.

or are you a hypocrit... *squint*

He didn't say that, He said that there should be a way for PvP'ers to get BCA without having to PvE. I dont know where you got the gear from..

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 03:36 PM
He isn't asking for anything to be handed to him, He's asking for another way to obtain it. He doesn't like doing PvE, He wants to get BCA another way other than to go find a group, do a flashpoint then roll for the item.

Let's switch the scenario, If the BCA dropped from champion bags. Would that be fun for you?.. (Assuming you are a PvE player). And if you asked for another way to obtain the BCA other than having to grind PvP matches, Would you like being called a noob that wants the game to hand stuff out to him?

This, thank you.

I never said I wanted something handed to me, I never said I wanted an easier way to do something. I'm just saying Stims and Adrenals are useful in PVP as well. Do I have to have a Rakata version? No, Rakata is the PVE stuff, I know that. But PVP guys need something for 50 WZ's too and the level 48 stuff doesn't compare to the Rakata or Exotech either one, for good reason. But we get lvl 50 gear progression from PVP and we should also have SOME way of obtaining craftable and reusable consumables from the PVP game as well.

Rakata Stims are already Biochem only, why limit it to PVE only as well? Just seems overly restrictive. Change the Rakata name and give us a way to get the mats from PVP or just give us another set of craftables and make the mats only be obtained from PVP.

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 03:38 PM
FINE If you want PvE gear from PvP than I want PvP gear from PvE. Why should I get pummelled by BMs over and over again to get my PvP gear?? You think that's fun? Give me a way to get the best PvP gear without having to PvP.

or are you a hypocrit... *squint*

And I don't really care who has the PVP gear to be honest. The easier it is for everyone to be in equal gear the easier it is to have skill mean something in PVP, which I for one am by no means against.

Edit: I worded stuff funny.

Elrenia
02.14.2012, 03:41 PM
well since they nerfed the rakatas so you can get the same crap from the GTM that dont need BCA to make, , you dont need BCA anyway, problem solved :D:D:D:D:D:D

Almghty_gir
02.14.2012, 03:42 PM
i have no problem with materials being BOP, i do think that all of the schematics should allow you to make BOE gear though... having almost everything (read: all but wrists/belt) being bind on pickup is pretty rediculous.

if you want to craft the best stuff you should have to work for it. but you should also be able to sell it.

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 03:42 PM
well since they nerfed the rakatas so you can get the same crap from the GTM that dont need BCA to make, , you dont need BCA anyway, problem solved :D:D:D:D:D:D

Which ones? If I can get equivalent items (stats AND reusable) then that works just fine for me. I could care less if its Rakata or whatever.

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 03:43 PM
i have no problem with materials being BOP, i do think that all of the schematics should allow you to make BOE gear though... having almost everything (read: all but wrists/belt) being bind on pickup is pretty rediculous.

if you want to craft the best stuff you should have to work for it. but you should also be able to sell it.

BOP mats weren't my issue so much as the only place to 'P' them being in PVE environment.

Mikeydecoy
02.14.2012, 03:45 PM
BOP mats weren't my issue so much as the only place to 'P' them being in PVE environment.

This is my point. They can remain BoP if there is a more PvP oriented way of earning them. Or alternatively, remove the BoP so they can be sold/traded, but that isn't the only necessary option which may make my thread title a bit misleading.

Tattersalad
02.14.2012, 03:56 PM
dont worry, im sure enough crying on the forums will eventually make everything in this game boe and have no requirements to use it so we can all go outfit on the gtm and not waste time leveling a proff.

Just out of curiosity though, has anyone who replied to this actually been a biochem?

Exotech - 535 for 15 seconds
Rakata - 565 for 15 second

Anyone else think the developers have a better use for their time?

If your hardcore enough for 5% your hardcore enough to run a FP a couple times in your life.

All making the crafting material BOE will do is break the prof. A reasonable compromise is to make them available from the vendors to buy with an equivalent amount of pvp tokens/points that you would earn from potentially running 4 FP.

Resinate
02.14.2012, 04:04 PM
There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.


But adding on top the fact that neckbeards who can and want to devote enough time for and enjoy PvE on top of PvP should get a boost in PvP simply because they can get a use out of their Crew Skill, which should inherently be usable by anyone who has it maxed, is downright terrible.

Pretty much just saying "I only want to play part of the game but I want the same rewards of those that play the whole game"

Hey if you can't be bothered with "carebear" pve content then I guess you don't get "carebear" cookies.

I am sorry if my response doesn't reflect your special place in the universe where you do only what you want but expect the same rewards as those that do what they need to

BTW PVP is a minigame within the overall MMORPG experience. I sincerely hope that someone comes up with a decent pvp centric MMO. Not that I would really choose to play it but it would give you guys a game to play that you can enjoy. That just might leave those of us that enjoy a full game experience to do just that without every patch being a pve nerf in the name of the almighty pvp balance

Mikeydecoy
02.14.2012, 04:08 PM
dont worry, im sure enough crying on the forums will eventually make everything in this game boe and have no requirements to use it so we can all go outfit on the gtm and not waste time leveling a proff.

Just out of curiosity though, has anyone who replied to this actually been a biochem?

Exotech - 535 for 15 seconds
Rakata - 565 for 15 second

Anyone else think the developers have a better use for their time than hand holding lazy crybabies?

Again, how is this being lazy? I'm not trying to argue the fine points of PvE vs PvP, I don't want to make anyone upset because PvE is their preferred form of play, but to say that performing well in PvP is being "lazier" than doing a mindnumbing time sink of a Heroic which even non-avid PvEers say is easy is a really ignorant statement.

I just don't want to dedicate the time to PvE when I don't have the spec for it, the gear for it, and simply do not enjoy it.

Resinate
02.14.2012, 04:18 PM
I just don't want to dedicate the time to PvE when I don't have the spec for it, the gear for it, and simply do not enjoy it.

Then don't. If there is a bioware employee holding a gun to your head making you run pve content, then I am on your side. Otherwise don't do pve, just don't complain that you aren't getting the pve rewards. It really is that simple.

Never said you were lazy, just that you come across as someone that expects full compensation for half a job is all.

Obbu
02.14.2012, 04:23 PM
The BoP thing is fine.

The PvE only thing is dubious, at best.

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 04:34 PM
Ok, stop accusing everyone else of wanting everyone else's cookies and rewards... Here's the underlying problem.

At the current time, there are equivalent rewards for PVP and PVE gear. Are some slightly better from one than the other? Yes. Not really a problem. You PVP = you get good PVP gear. You PVE = you get good PVE gear. I think some people theorycraft a mixture of both gear gives the best results, don't care, that's fine. Doing both making you marginally better at both is okay. Doing both to make you marginally better at only one or the other, not so great.

However, there are NO level 50 Stims that I can craft for myself from leveling Biochem to 400 without doing PVE content. Not a single one. The closest I can get is to R/E a lvl 48 until I get a blue one, then R/E the blue one till I get a reusable purple.

I'm not asking for PVE rewards from PVP or vice versa, I'm asking for SOME reward from PVP in this area (Reusable Stims). Right now Rakata use PVE only mats and Exotech use PVE dropped schematics. So as wtih the earlier illustration, You PVE = you get two options for lvl 50 reusable Stims. You PVP = you get nothing.

Ask yourself this, if the only way to get the lvl 50 reusable stims were from PVP, would the PVE only crowd not be complaining?

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 04:41 PM
just that you come across as someone that expects full compensation for half a job is all.

PVE players can get EVERYTHING they want to excel at PVE without ever touching PVP. No one can come in and do only PVP and then step in with better gear than someone who has put the same amount of time in PVE.

PVP cannot say the same. We get the gear, but the consumables are missing. Its not that we only want to do half the job, its that we don't want to do the OTHER job just to keep up.

Again how would the PVE only crowd like it if the only way to get these things were Battlemaster Bag drops? Then they would not only have to gear up for lvl 50 PVP but continue doing so until they achieved BM and then continue doing so until the RNG gods smiled upon them. This is the same situation for the PVP crowd now. We would have to gear up for PVE because PVP gear is not the best for PVE. Then we would have to find groups to do the content, beat the content, and hope that we win the roll in order to get the mats.

If the rolls were reversed the PVE crowd would feel just as cheated as the PVP crowd does now. The problem is we refuse to look at the game from any perspective but our own.

Elrenia
02.14.2012, 04:50 PM
man, it's like this.. in games you make choices, those choices affect the outcome of your game play.. wether its to go pvp or pve based, or which craft skills you choose, which class/char/talent tree you choose.. you cant have everything, all of the time

if you ONLY want to PVP then you have to take the limitations that go with it.. you can easily make the purple stims without having to PVE at all which are only a smallest fraction worse than the rakata and if it bothers you that much, buy the exotech or whatever they are called from the GTM which are better

or if u are really troubled, the time you have spent on this forum, you could have done black talon a couple of times for the crystal alloy.. Talon takes 30 mins or so, and its easy a child could do it, and since you are an avid pvp i assume you have very nice pvp gear which is quite suitable for Pve since pvp gear is better than pve gear (until columi)

and for the record im an avid pvp'er, i hardly ever pve :rolleyes:


and to compare a pve guy having to reach battlemaster rank to get his gear (which takes weeks unless u never sleep and play Wz'd 24 hours a day) compared to you who could run black talon in 20-30 mins and get the item you are moaning about. no comparison really is there

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 04:56 PM
man, it's like this.. in games you make choices, those choices affect the outcome of your game play.. wether its to go pvp or pve based, or which craft skills you choose, which class/char/talent tree you choose.. you cant have everything, all of the time

if you ONLY want to PVP then you have to take the limitations that go with it.. you can easily make the purple stims without having to PVE at all which are only a smallest fraction worse than the rakata and if it bothers you that much, buy the exotech or whatever they are called from the GTM which are better

or if u are really troubled, the time you have spent on this forum, you could have done black talon a couple of times for the crystal alloy.. Talon takes 20 mins or so, and its easy a child could do it, and since you are an avid pvp i assume you have very nice pvp gear which is quite suitable for Pve since pvp gear is better than pve gear (until columi)

and for the record im an avid pvp'er, i hardly ever pve :rolleyes:

But when is there a limitation to the PVE crowd that make them have to PVP for something? OTHER than simply gear to PVP with. When is there something from PVP that the top raiders who like to min-max say "Dang, I have to go PVP for a while to get this?"

I don't mind the concept of PVP only can't have everything if PVE only can't have everything as well. Tired of being the red-headed-step-child. No offense to red-headed-step-children...

If I don't have to PVE to get the exotech stuff that's fine. I was unaware this was the case. However it still makes Biochem rather useless for someone who PVP's if even after leveling it to 400 I have to just go buy something someone else made to get equivalent stuff.

Tattersalad
02.14.2012, 04:59 PM
yam,

the exotech adrenal thats BOE (535 stats) i talked about earlier is only 5% less of a bonus from the rakatta biochem required BOP adrenal (565 stats).

everyone,
i DO agree that there isnt a pvp adrenal, the people pro for this thread want a PVE adrenal to use in PVP, why dont you just ask them to put a pvp adrenal in the game that gives you... wait for it... expertise? i hear thats what pvpers use...

Elrenia
02.14.2012, 05:02 PM
after all the nerfs biochem is becoming useless to everyone, pvp or pve, :P

and if people dont pvp, they lose out on good gear because the pvp gear is better than the pve lol , i've run all flashpoints i've done and even operations in pvp gear :D:D :D :D :D

Sky_walkerPL
02.14.2012, 05:27 PM
i DO agree that there isnt a pvp adrenal, the people pro for this thread want a PVE adrenal to use in PVP, why dont you just ask them to put a pvp adrenal in the game that gives you... wait for it... expertise? i hear thats what pvpers use...

Right, cause PvPers only use expertise. lol
Adrenals in PvP are as important as in PvE only used less commonly due to cost.
Besides there's also a matter of medpacks and stims crafted from bops which are ESSENTIAL for leading PvPer.

And I agree that something needs to be done to give PvPers a chance to buy BoP crafting materials withouth being forced to run PvE content. Cause let's face it: that's how it works.

Perhaps random mats box for 500 merc com? That would drop one randomly picked BoP material? Or a winning warzone have 50% to give one player from winning team a random BoP material? Or suggested BoE for all mats (bop mats to craft bop items is ridicioulus concept anyway)

Yamirashi
02.14.2012, 05:51 PM
yam,

the exotech adrenal thats BOE (535 stats) i talked about earlier is only 5% less of a bonus from the rakatta biochem required BOP adrenal (565 stats).

everyone,
i DO agree that there isnt a pvp adrenal, the people pro for this thread want a PVE adrenal to use in PVP, why dont you just ask them to put a pvp adrenal in the game that gives you... wait for it... expertise? i hear thats what pvpers use...

I had already suggested that earlier.. A Battlemaster Might Stim and such as opposed to the Rakata but the special mat for it is a drop from Battlemaster Bags.

And no, we need more than just expertise, but I wouldn't mind the Adrenals being Str+Expertise or something rather than Str+Pwr. Not saying its better one way or the other but that's an acceptable trade for PVE vs PVP.

BlazingShadow
02.14.2012, 05:58 PM
Forcing someone to run heroics for even a chance of getting one to make Rakata reusables, and then having to get 2 more if you want the "set", is absurd.

Either make it not BoP so I can buy them, or make a way to obtain it via PvP.

I'm not looking to hear if any diehard carebear tells me that my idea is bad for x reason, because it doesn't pertain to you and you should have no say in it. I'm also not looking to hear "TOR is a story driven PvE game with a PvP minigame" because I don't care and it doesn't matter how you play the game, it matters at least in the business sense that Bioware can accommodate the 2 biggest customers who the game is advertised for, PvEers and PvPers.

There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.

I've had a plethora of complaints about the game but I'm not one to cry about things or ragequit, clearly I am still playing. In spite of the fact that my AoE stun doesn't function, all my gear is stacked with useless accuracy, and Surge got nerfed, I still can enjoy the game.

But adding on top the fact that neckbeards who can and want to devote enough time for and enjoy PvE on top of PvP should get a boost in PvP simply because they can get a use out of their Crew Skill, which should inherently be usable by anyone who has it maxed, is downright terrible.

Do a raid, bro. FInd a PUG, do an 8man raid... like 8 alloys drop in raids, and it takes about the same time as 2 FPs to complete.

BlazingShadow
02.14.2012, 06:00 PM
Making it NOT BOP sounds fine. I'd love for a way to make money off the drops in raids/HMFPs.

Walking-Carpet
02.14.2012, 06:07 PM
Making it NOT BOP sounds fine. I'd love for a way to make money off the drops in raids/HMFPs.
I agree. I hate BoP crafting requirements.

tegororn
02.14.2012, 07:34 PM
/signed

This will happen sooner all later u'll see, and im gonna be buying these at the auction house.

Mikeydecoy
02.14.2012, 09:55 PM
Do a raid, bro. FInd a PUG, do an 8man raid... like 8 alloys drop in raids, and it takes about the same time as 2 FPs to complete.

But this is what I'm saying. I shouldn't be forced to do a raid to get it. I don't want to raid, and even if I did not only would it be hard to find or make a group that would accept me, but I would likely hold them back. The fact remains though that I have no desire to do it.

Consider if this was only available through completing WZ dailies or some form of PvP that could be considered effort and time consuming. I guarantee a large portion of the player base would complain. I don't see how this is any different. Whether the percentage of exclusive PvErs is greater than exclusive PvPers, or the number of players in between who are willing to play both forms of content and enjoy them is a large portion of the player base, the fact of the matter is that PvP, like it or not, is a big part of any MMO. I don't care what anyone's opinions are on whether it's balanced, whether it's a minigame, or whether you care. Since the developers are obligated to cater to both PvE and PvP respectively in terms of content, I feel that the rewards should not outweigh one another.

For example, you should not be able to get PvP gear through PvE, and vice versa. PvP gear benefits PvP more than PvE gear does, and vice versa. Nightmare mode raids can drop mounts, and high valor and commendations can buy you mounts.

If you can get a required material for a universal Crew Skill through only one form of content, it isn't a good marketing ploy to force your consumers to trudge through content they do not enjoy. After all, they are paying for the content. You can never make everyone happy, but I think it is an acceptable argument that PvP and PvE deserve equal value rewards, whether it be through gear or crafting materials, in one way or another, since those two concepts largely define the basis behind MMO gaming.

Illuziun
02.14.2012, 10:00 PM
Things are already too easy to achieve as it is.

You can get enough of them to craft the few that you want within a few days with the current setup. If anything, it's too easy for such a useful item.

Coriolan_Martius
02.14.2012, 10:02 PM
I agree with the OP on this. There should a PvP equivalent for this BOP Rakata nonsense. Make it an obscenely hard PvP reward, whatever. But do give another option for people who can't stomach the mind numbing and super buggy PvE end game content.

The real problem is that credits are essentially worthless beyond a point in this game. The other problem is that you can't convert between most currencies. Econ 101 => a functional economy requires a fully convertible medium of change. Visa may be accepted everywhere but cash is still king in the real world. Credits should be as well in this game.

Anathar
02.14.2012, 10:43 PM
as an answer for the pve vs pvp subject..i completely agree

this is a game and as such we should have choices of how we want to get everything and anything whether it be solo, grouped, pvp, or pve...

why does it --or even why should it-- matter to anyone else how someone else gets anything in a game? some of you get upset over such trivial things...examples:

"dude i pve i should get things you dont" -- lol?

"dude i pvp i should get things you dont" -- lol?

"dude i group i should get things you dont" -- lol?

"dude i solo i should get things you dont" -- lol?

--dude its all a game we're all doing the same thing..you dont "deserve" anything least of all special treatment. you arent "earning" anything youre playing a game.

its a game... just have fun... and devs let us have fun the way we want to..

we're the ones paying you... not the other way around... stop thinking your thoughts and ideas mean more than ours. without the money we give you you wouldnt have this job.

scorpinot
02.14.2012, 10:57 PM
Agreed... but until they change it,

Instead of wasting 10mins on the forums go get a decent 4man group and run Black talon, which only takes 10mins.

firesprite_ea
02.15.2012, 12:12 AM
This, thank you.

I never said I wanted something handed to me, I never said I wanted an easier way to do something. I'm just saying Stims and Adrenals are useful in PVP as well. Do I have to have a Rakata version? No, Rakata is the PVE stuff, I know that. But PVP guys need something for 50 WZ's too and the level 48 stuff doesn't compare to the Rakata or Exotech either one, for good reason. But we get lvl 50 gear progression from PVP and we should also have SOME way of obtaining craftable and reusable consumables from the PVP game as well.

Rakata Stims are already Biochem only, why limit it to PVE only as well? Just seems overly restrictive. Change the Rakata name and give us a way to get the mats from PVP or just give us another set of craftables and make the mats only be obtained from PVP.

I actually think that is pretty much ballanced. You want a top crafted biochem product - go PvE. You want a powerful, but not top of the line - here is a lvl 48 one. Moreover, now that exotech is not longer biochem only you can expect them to appear on the market and they ARE of the same power as rakata. Sure, you will not get adrenals but i am sure you can do with the normal 48 lvl ones.

Regarding pvp only meds - you already have them. Pvp medpack is the most powerful healing you can get in the game. It scales with your health and restores a lot. You also have your adrenal item.

P.S. I do think they should introduce Bio Alloy to be sold for tionese comms/crystals though. Those are useless as when you do HM FP you gear up in columi and tionese is actualy inferior to daily slotted moddable gear.

Sqyre
02.15.2012, 06:15 PM
If you are unable to run 3 heroics in order to get the materials you want perhaps a more casual type of game play is required on your part. If you are unable to find a group in order to participate then perhaps you should join a guild. If you are unable to find a guild then perhaps you should reconsider if MMORPG's are for you.

In the time you have spent complaining and responding about this issue to other players you could have easily completed one heroic if not more. An item that requires you to complete three hard modes to get is not asking you to waste away your game time. Once you get it made you are done and will not need to make another one.

Yamirashi
02.20.2012, 03:52 PM
If you are unable to run 3 heroics in order to get the materials you want perhaps a more casual type of game play is required on your part. If you are unable to find a group in order to participate then perhaps you should join a guild. If you are unable to find a guild then perhaps you should reconsider if MMORPG's are for you.

In the time you have spent complaining and responding about this issue to other players you could have easily completed one heroic if not more. An item that requires you to complete three hard modes to get is not asking you to waste away your game time. Once you get it made you are done and will not need to make another one.

Again, COULD I do PVE? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself a reusable persists through death stim as a Biochem who only PVP's. My crafting profession should not be tied to what game mode I wish to play in. Lets make this more ridiculous so some people might get the picture. If I wanted to do nothing but Space missions, I would not want to have to run PVP or PVE in order to get starship upgrades.

Also since I've heard this argument to my fill, why do people assume that because I can pop in and make a post to a message board I have time to run PVE content? Can I please run a hard mode for you since you seem to think it would be acceptable for me to check back every 20 minutes or so and attack once then go back to other things I had to do?

Jarvus
02.20.2012, 04:41 PM
Yeah, I too would like a way to earn Biometric Crystal Alloy without having to shout for LFG for HMs. I've basically found that unless I join a guild I can't even run HMs reliably because, despite good stats and damage, I end up getting bumped because some guy has to leave room for a guildie or something. It's annoying.

I had read before that one of the later space missions rewarded Biometric Crystal Alloy under some conditions, but that appears to not be the case. Wasn't really looking to play Zaxxon 2012 anyway.

Bioware, please make Biometric Crystal Alloy available for purchase either through daily or warzone or merc commendations, some combination thereof, or make them bind on equip so that they can at least be tradeable and let the market sort it out.

AetherMcLoud
02.20.2012, 04:41 PM
PVE players can get EVERYTHING they want to excel at PVE without ever touching PVP. No one can come in and do only PVP and then step in with better gear than someone who has put the same amount of time in PVE.

PVP cannot say the same. We get the gear, but the consumables are missing. Its not that we only want to do half the job, its that we don't want to do the OTHER job just to keep up.

Again how would the PVE only crowd like it if the only way to get these things were Battlemaster Bag drops? Then they would not only have to gear up for lvl 50 PVP but continue doing so until they achieved BM and then continue doing so until the RNG gods smiled upon them. This is the same situation for the PVP crowd now. We would have to gear up for PVE because PVP gear is not the best for PVE. Then we would have to find groups to do the content, beat the content, and hope that we win the roll in order to get the mats.

If the rolls were reversed the PVE crowd would feel just as cheated as the PVP crowd does now. The problem is we refuse to look at the game from any perspective but our own.

This is the most sensible post in the whole thread. If PVEers would have to run warzones to get a CHANCE at having a crafting material needed for their crewskills they would flood this forum with QQ threads without end.

But if we PVPers don't WANT to run PVE stuff to get our crafting materials suddenly it's "LOL run a raid/fp bro, get a guild, if you can't you shouldn't play MMOs" and stuff like that. Ridiculous double standard.

_Zorth_
02.20.2012, 04:57 PM
Gosh, When did he say he wanted the BCA handed to him?
He said that he wanted a PvP way of getting the BCA, that's fair isn't it?

If you PvE people had to run WZ dailies in order to just get a slight CHANCE of obtaining BCA, wouldn't you cry about there not being a way of obtaining it in PvE?

Battilea
02.20.2012, 05:02 PM
Seems like it could be a rare in some of the PvP bags, something you could get from the 50 dailies/weeklies.

Dystopic
02.20.2012, 05:07 PM
I wish I could buy them with centurion tokens. After you are champ geared they are kind of pointless.

MightyHalo
02.20.2012, 05:26 PM
I wish I could buy them with centurion tokens. After you are champ geared they are kind of pointless.

Pretty good idea here since I have way too many champ tokens building up.

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 01:21 AM
Bump for great justice.

Helig
02.21.2012, 01:24 AM
I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.

Pretty much. Imagine the outcry if some best in slot items for raids could be acquired only via PvP. I remember WoW TBC pretty clearly back when Arena weapons were better than 95% of raid drops.

Sky_walkerPL
02.21.2012, 01:44 AM
I wish I could buy them with centurion tokens. After you are champ geared they are kind of pointless.

This.
Even buying it for champion tokens would work though as I have too many of thrm too ;)
And to be fair with pve players: allow swapping tionese crystals to crystal alloy.
Cause these are useless too (got almost 1000 of them)

Broom
02.21.2012, 01:54 AM
I'm with the OP. I don't like PVE, and I really don't want to engage in it. But in order to get the highest level crafting materials, you HAVE to. There really should be an alternative way of earning those materials, through PVP. Either that, or allow players who DO enjoy PVE to sell them in the galactic market.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 02:05 AM
I'm with the OP. I don't like PVE, and I really don't want to engage in it. But in order to get the highest level crafting materials, you HAVE to. There really should be an alternative way of earning those materials, through PVP. Either that, or allow players who DO enjoy PVE to sell them in the galactic market.

/signed

Erevan_Kindelar
02.21.2012, 02:06 AM
He didn't say that, He said that there should be a way for PvP'ers to get BCA without having to PvE. I dont know where you got the gear from..

I think you are missing the point the poster was trying to make...

OP is saying "I do not want to have to do PvE to get something that I want. I want to PvP to get it, so give it to me through PvP".
Poster you are responding to is using the same argument - "I do not want to have to do PvP to get something that I want. I want to PvE to get it, so give it to me through PvE".

I can see the point of not giving PvP BM gear through PvE, but a non-geared 50 trying to get their BM gear by going up against BM geared 50's is an exercise in spawn-die-spawn-die unless they are part of a well-organised premade. It is about as much fun for him as farming the BCA is for the PvPer who is forced to PvE.

gorstram
02.21.2012, 02:22 AM
I don't have a problem with people getting a 1% chance to drop a BCA out of PvP bags. That way when they run their lolPVP ad nauseum, they'll eventually get one. Or they can just plug their nose, do something they don't want to do and get it with a 100% chance (or 25% if they're pugging).

Problem solved :P

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 02:27 AM
I think you are missing the point the poster was trying to make...

OP is saying "I do not want to have to do PvE to get something that I want. I want to PvP to get it, so give it to me through PvP".
Poster you are responding to is using the same argument - "I do not want to have to do PvP to get something that I want. I want to PvE to get it, so give it to me through PvE".

I can see the point of not giving PvP BM gear through PvE, but a non-geared 50 trying to get their BM gear by going up against BM geared 50's is an exercise in spawn-die-spawn-die unless they are part of a well-organised premade. It is about as much fun for him as farming the BCA is for the PvPer who is forced to PvE.
Not a fair comparison PVPers know if they want PVE gear they have to grind it like everyone else BCA is needed for crafting a skill that is supposed to be self sufficient and cross gameplay styles...it's not...You have to PVE for a LOT of the higher end stuff and I play just as many hours doing what I enjoy (PVP) as they do doing what they enjoy..Bio has stated that they want EVERYONE to enjoy the crafting system yet they have made it impossible for hardcore PVPers.

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 05:43 AM
Not a fair comparison PVPers know if they want PVE gear they have to grind it like everyone else BCA is needed for crafting a skill that is supposed to be self sufficient and cross gameplay styles...it's not...You have to PVE for a LOT of the higher end stuff and I play just as many hours doing what I enjoy (PVP) as they do doing what they enjoy..Bio has stated that they want EVERYONE to enjoy the crafting system yet they have made it impossible for hardcore PVPers.

wrong. its pretty easy to make the connection that crafting is considered a pve activity. all of the material nodes are in pve areas. you just want your infinite consumables without having to actually put in the work for it, since you will be running warzones and opening bags anyway.

if anything to be "fair" you should be asking that there be a non raid/hm fp option since there are a chunk of people that dont want to do those either.

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 05:52 AM
wrong. its pretty easy to make the connection that crafting is considered a pve activity. all of the material nodes are in pve areas. you just want your infinite consumables without having to actually put in the work for it, since you will be running warzones and opening bags anyway. .

Wrong. I can level every crewskill to 400 without ever leaving the fleet. Crewskills are as much PVP are they are PVE get that into your head.

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 05:54 AM
Wrong. I can level every crewskill to 400 without ever leaving the fleet. Crewskills are as much PVP are they are PVE get that into your head.

nope, because its not true. there is no crafted pvp gear. there are no nodes in warzones. its not a pvp activity no matter how much you want it to be.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 06:02 AM
nope, because its not true. there is no crafted pvp gear. there are no nodes in warzones. its not a pvp activity no matter how much you want it to be.
You are kidding right...you do realize we want both of those as well and SHOULD have both of those as well...but we aren't greedy just let us buy/obtain what we need to make Grenades and Medpacks.

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 06:09 AM
nope, because its not true. there is no crafted pvp gear. there are no nodes in warzones. its not a pvp activity no matter how much you want it to be.

Cybertech grenades and Biochem reusables beg to differ. Those have PVP written all over them.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 06:31 AM
nope, because its not true. there is no crafted pvp gear. there are no nodes in warzones. its not a pvp activity no matter how much you want it to be.

Thanks Carebear...you may have just saved Ilum...see sometimes O.o are good for something ;).

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 06:38 AM
You are kidding right...you do realize we want both of those as well and SHOULD have both of those as well...but we aren't greedy just let us buy/obtain what we need to make Grenades and Medpacks.

arguable as to if we should or not. i to happen to agree that player made starter pvp gear should exist but from a pure design standpoint it seems bioware does not. as it is currently im against making alloys easier to obtain than they already are since they are frankly stupidly easy to get, wether you value the item over what you have to do to obtain it is the question.

@aether not even close. if anything those are the only items that are actually usable in all areas, attempting to pin "those are for pvp" is disengeous at best. by that logic i guess you should be able to scavenge supplies from corpses right? both biochem and cybertech supplies make sense coming from player corpses. yet you arent allowed. why should you be allowed to get the "hard part" out of the way for "free" aswell?

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 06:41 AM
Thanks Carebear...you may have just saved Ilum...see sometimes O.o are good for something ;).

im actually not a carebear, i just personally hate mmo pvp. far too much zerg, rng, overgearing bs to make it competitive and worth my time. ill gladly roll you in lol, cs, bf3, or virtually any card/boardgame though.

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 06:42 AM
by that logic i guess you should be able to scavenge supplies from corpses right? both biochem and cybertech supplies make sense coming from player corpses. yet you arent allowed. why should you be allowed to get the "hard part" out of the way for "free" aswell?

Logic conclusion fail. You can't bioanalyse or scavange humanoid mobs, so why should you be able to do that to players?

Every one of those carebears argueing that PVPers should run flashpoints in the hope of getting the crafting mat are simply ignorant. Would it hurt you in ANY WAY if the alloys would be available trough pvp? No. So why are you against it again?

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 06:57 AM
Logic conclusion fail. You can't bioanalyse or scavange humanoid mobs, so why should you be able to do that to players?

Every one of those carebears argueing that PVPers should run flashpoints in the hope of getting the crafting mat are simply ignorant. Would it hurt you in ANY WAY if the alloys would be available trough pvp? No. So why are you against it again?

because there is no reason to make them easier to get. because i personally dont think that you should have access to everything for only playing half the game. finally, because you are begging for a change that frankly isnt needed outside of the fact that you are too lazy to make it happen. you want all of the goodies without going to the trouble of paying the price.
as the old saying goes, take what you want and pay for it.

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 07:01 AM
because there is no reason to make them easier to get. because i personally dont think that you should have access to everything for only playing half the game. finally, because you are begging for a change that frankly isnt needed outside of the fact that you are too lazy to make it happen. you want all of the goodies without going to the trouble of paying the price.
as the old saying goes, take what you want and pay for it.

That saying doesn't apply to MMOs because MMOs constantly change.

I agree that there is no reason to make them easier to get. They aren't hard to get right now. That's not the problem. The problem is that there are people who don't WANT to run hardmodes or operations to get crafting materials. Try to wrap your head around that.

Having them cost 1000 merc comms or whatever would certainly NOT make them easy to get. But then we wouldn't have to do content we don't want to do.

There IS a reason to make them available from other stuff than just endgame PVE.

P.S. Nice way to dodge the question what's the reason why we shouldn't be able to get them through PVP.

_Zorth_
02.21.2012, 07:11 AM
because there is no reason to make them easier to get. because i personally dont think that you should have access to everything for only playing half the game. finally, because you are begging for a change that frankly isnt needed outside of the fact that you are too lazy to make it happen. you want all of the goodies without going to the trouble of paying the price.
as the old saying goes, take what you want and pay for it.


You are kidding, right?

PvE'ers only need to play half the game to have acces to everything. This is about unfairness, Not making the game easy. When do PvE'ers have to say "Oh, just a sec need to go PvP to get something for the Operation later tonight.."?

There is NOTHING they can get out of PvP that will benefit them, The PVP gear is bad for PvE, The Valor makes no difference, The mounts are pointless and won't benefit a PvE player..

The PvP players NEED to go into FP's or Ops if they wanna just have a slight chance of getting a BCA. Why is it so wrong to make it purchasable from PvP vendors for 100 Champ/Centurion Comms or make it sellable on AH/GTN?
(I've got 64 of them, Crafted most of the BiS items.. Don't need them anymore, could sell them to earn some cash.)

This is coming from a hardcore PvE player, I've got friends who PvP alot and don't like PvE. Why should I only need to PvE to get everything, while they need to do both parts of the game?

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 07:17 AM
That saying doesn't apply to MMOs because MMOs constantly change.

wait what? im what way does that quote not apply? even if the game is constantly changing going out and getting whatever it is you want and then living with the consequences of doing so is kinda there regardless.

I agree that there is no reason to make them easier to get. They aren't hard to get right now. That's not the problem. The problem is that there are people who don't WANT to run hardmodes or operations to get crafting materials. Try to wrap your head around that.

Having them cost 1000 merc comms or whatever would certainly NOT make them easy to get. But then we wouldn't have to do content we don't want to do.

There IS a reason to make them available from other stuff than just endgame PVE.

of course it would make them easier to get. you are going to be pvping anyway. getting them as a course of what you are naturally going to be doing may aswell be sending them to you in the mail as soon as you hit 400, or better yet not requiring them at all.

P.S. Nice way to dodge the question what's the reason why we shouldn't be able to get them through PVP.

in what way did i dodge? logically you dont get any other crafting mat from pvp, why should you get that one? you want pve items from pvp, just because you dont want to do what it takes to get said item. its silly. your entire argument boils down to a temper tantrum.

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 07:24 AM
You are kidding, right?

PvE'ers only need to play half the game to have acces to everything. This is about unfairness, Not making the game easy. When do PvE'ers have to say "Oh, just a sec need to go PvP to get something for the Operation later tonight.."?

There is NOTHING they can get out of PvP that will benefit them, The PVP gear is bad for PvE, The Valor makes no difference, The mounts are pointless and won't benefit a PvE player..

The PvP players NEED to go into FP's or Ops if they wanna just have a slight chance of getting a BCA. Why is it so wrong to make it purchasable from PvP vendors for 100 Champ/Centurion Comms or make it sellable on AH/GTN?
(I've got 64 of them, Crafted most of the BiS items.. Don't need them anymore, could sell them to earn some cash.)

This is coming from a hardcore PvE player, I've got friends who PvP alot and don't like PvE. Why should I only need to PvE to get everything, while they need to do both parts of the game?


you dont though. to pvp effectively you still need to pvp. pvpers dont need alloys for any facet of pvp. they can buy stims/adrenals just like the rest of the non biochem players. oh, and its still "quicker" to gear up to hm ops through pvp than it is pve. also, i really have to ask, once you got all that you needed why did you continue to need/greed? ive been running hm or better ops since week 2 and there are still people in my raid groups who need them for crafting things for there companions and such. it seems that you continuing to pick them up was rather greedy dont you think? thats on top of the fact that people generally in that position really dont need the cash either so why exactly you would want to open up that market i really dont understand.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 07:28 AM
because there is no reason to make them easier to get. because i personally dont think that you should have access to everything for only playing half the game. finally, because you are begging for a change that frankly isnt needed outside of the fact that you are too lazy to make it happen. you want all of the goodies without going to the trouble of paying the price.
as the old saying goes, take what you want and pay for it.

You only play 1/3 the game as well...and if you do PVP you do it because you enjoy it not bacause you HAVE to....and the other 1/3 of the game we BOTH play is crafting and I spent just as much time and credits as you leveling those skills...sinking in yet?

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 07:35 AM
You only play 1/3 the game as well...and if you do PVP you do it because you enjoy it not bacause you HAVE to....and the other 1/3 of the game we BOTH play is crafting and I spent just as much time and credits as you leveling those skills...sinking in yet?

crafting isnt a third part though. its like saying space is a seperate chunk of the game. although i dont enjoy pvp i grabbed my quick bm gear. i also pvped for the lvl 30 orange set because i liked the color scheme and graphics. i did it and i didnt come here and throw a temper a tantrum that i should get all of it through pve cause i hate the pvp! i made the choice that what i wanted was of more value than putting up with the pvp in order to get it. is that sinking in yet?

-Cascade-
02.21.2012, 07:36 AM
I agree with the OP provided they were purchasable with commendations and earned through specific acts...not just through the every day general PvP play.

However, if they make one profession for PvP and PvE, then recipes for gear, mods, enhance, etc should also be earnable thru similar play.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 07:41 AM
crafting isnt a third part though. its like saying space is a seperate chunk of the game. although i dont enjoy pvp i grabbed my quick bm gear. i also pvped for the lvl 30 orange set because i liked the color scheme and graphics. i did it and i didnt come here and throw a temper a tantrum that i should get all of it through pve cause i hate the pvp! i made the choice that what i wanted was of more value than putting up with the pvp in order to get it. is that sinking in yet?

Wow really.... So you You exploited Ilum to get BM gear and you don't want PVPers to have access to BCA a bind on possesion item that has no value other than to the individual player..space missions..whatever your arguement is as weak as you in your "quick BM gear"

AetherMcLoud
02.21.2012, 07:43 AM
of course it would make them easier to get. you are going to be pvping anyway. getting them as a course of what you are naturally going to be doing may aswell be sending them to you in the mail as soon as you hit 400, or better yet not requiring them at all.


Aha. So PVEers SHOULD get them as a course of what they are naturally going to do, but PVPers shouldn't? That's the very definition of a double standard.

Why don't we just send you a full Rakata operations gear once you hit 50? See I can hyperbole too...

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 07:49 AM
Aha. So PVEers SHOULD get them as a course of what they are naturally going to do, but PVPers shouldn't? That's the very definition of a double standard.

Why don't we just send you a full Rakata operations gear once you hit 50? See I can hyperbole too...

Exactly..where's my "quick rakatatata gear" exploit at...like I give a flying **** about that.

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 07:53 AM
Aha. So PVEers SHOULD get them as a course of what they are naturally going to do, but PVPers shouldn't? That's the very definition of a double standard.

Why don't we just send you a full Rakata operations gear once you hit 50? See I can hyperbole too...

thats only making the assumption that "pve" is only raids and hm fps. thats where bioware chose to put them. there are several extremely casual players that i have carried through to pick those up that really have no place in either an op or hms at all (blame the wives of some of my buddies ><) just to get these. they really are super easy to get, and anyone can get a hold of them if they put there mind to it. because you dont want to run the content, really is a poor excuse.

@zeke great job slandering me and attempting to dismiss my argument, keep up the great whining!

ebunts
02.21.2012, 08:00 AM
The real problem is that the BCA is needed in too many crafts not to be common. If the alloy was needed for one or two high end crafts then keeping it rare is fine. But not when you have over 300 uses for it.

Another option for getting these would be the level 6 crew missions. Even if not common, atleast having a chance is better than nothing.

Hardcore gamers may get all the BCA's they want and need, but causual gamers and those who play on limited times wont have any chance if more options isnt introduced in obtaining any rare items.

Too many games become unbalanced and unfair to casual gamers if getting the resources isnt available. In UO, you can get all the ores, woods, ect., including the rares, by mining, lumberjacking, ect. It didnt matter if you played 8 hrs or 1 hr, you could obtain the resources and dont have to be hardcore gamer.

In that other Star Wars game (that isnt around anymore) a causual gamer was able to get harvesters set upon server best resources when they spawned and would then have a chance to compete.

dannomite
02.21.2012, 08:00 AM
Get group of friends. Run 3 HMs. Get them to pass. Profit?

You'd think they were asking you to constantly pve.


On another note, they clearly should make the Centurion relics not bound because pvers don't want to have to pvp to get 2 champion bags!

Yamirashi
02.21.2012, 08:32 AM
Get group of friends. Run 3 HMs. Get them to pass. Profit?

You'd think they were asking you to constantly pve.


And how long do those 3 HMs take? A lot longer than I care to run around fighting a computer. I'm sorry, I'm a software developer. I fight computers from 8-5 every day and when I get home I don't care to continue fighting a computer. I don't care for a side of the game where once you get the gear and learn the fight you can roll through it in no time, that's not fun to me. Not saying anyone else shouldn't like it, just saying I DON'T!


On another note, they clearly should make the Centurion relics not bound because pvers don't want to have to pvp to get 2 champion bags!

This really has nothing to do with the argument... I didn't ask for someone to sell me rakata tokens, just give me a way to get a crafting material in my just as important side of the game as yours.

Again, if PVE people want to PVE there is no reason for them to ever have to step into PVP. Period. They don't HAVE to.

If a PVP player wants to have all their available buffs for PVP they HAVE to PVE to get them. This is not just a "I want the Rakata stuff" I'm just saying I want SOMETHING. The closest thing I can get without doing HM's is the reusable 48 which I had to RNG R/E to get and then it doesn't even persist through death, which quite frankly is a bigger deal to us PVP players than it is to PVE. Face it, we die more, we have to re-apply it more if it doesn't persist through death.

Give me a level 50 reusable stim that persists through death that I can get through PVP as a Biochem. Remember these Rakata things are not just a PVE only thing. There are plenty of PVE people who will not get them because you have to be Biochem to use them. Its a BIOCHEM thing. I am a Biochem just as much as any of you are. Why do you think you're so special because you can tolerate this any more that we can?

I'm in a guild and at some point will get these materials, even if they have to carry me through the HMs to get them. Its not that they are hard to get, or that I can't get them. I just don't think its a good game design to have such a hole in itemization for the PVP crowd. I will make sure once I've gotten all the mats I need for all the Rakata reusables I want that I come back and confirm that I still think its a bad system.

Pyorrhea
02.21.2012, 08:40 AM
OP in some extent I do agree with you and a part of me will be quite pissed if you can faceroll PvE items by doing PvP.

I PvP/PvE and both are quite time consuming, however I did do both for my gear upgrades and for the CBA. I do not agree with CBA to be gained via PvP as the one would ultimately be easier to obtain the matts with. And BW likes them some RNG. If you are in a PvE FP you have a 25% chance to get the item if everyone rolls need, I don't see BW adding this in bag drops as there is already quite a bit of QQ with the current % drop rate for PvP gear.

The best thing I would suggest is adding of PvP stims/adrenals/medpacs that could be crafted by PvP matts, gained from doing PvP.

But this would again make Biochem a more viable choice, thus all profs would need some sort of PvP gain added to them, which is additional changes to the game.

For your sake I hope they add something that will comfort you.

I did the grind and got me some CBAs.

eldisper
02.21.2012, 08:51 AM
I agree with the OP provided they were purchasable with commendations and earned through specific acts...not just through the every day general PvP play.

However, if they make one profession for PvP and PvE, then recipes for gear, mods, enhance, etc should also be earnable thru similar play.

agreed

Maestrodomus
02.21.2012, 08:54 AM
Yeah, it kinda sucks, but no ones stopping anyone from PvE'ing or PvP'ing. It can all be had you just don't want to do it. Run a couple of ops one week with 8 friends (you'd faceroll in Champion/BM gear) and you'll have more mats than you can use. I have half a bay filled with data cubes and alloys AFTER I've made 10-15 rakata pieces trying to get augment slots.

If you don't want to play the game to get the stuff, then stop complaining.

Thundergulch
02.21.2012, 10:18 AM
Yeah, it kinda sucks, but no ones stopping anyone from PvE'ing or PvP'ing. It can all be had you just don't want to do it. Run a couple of ops one week with 8 friends (you'd faceroll in Champion/BM gear) and you'll have more mats than you can use. I have half a bay filled with data cubes and alloys AFTER I've made 10-15 rakata pieces trying to get augment slots.

If you don't want to play the game to get the stuff, then stop complaining.

Well said.

_Zorth_
02.21.2012, 11:24 AM
you dont though. to pvp effectively you still need to pvp. pvpers dont need alloys for any facet of pvp.


Yes they do, That's like saying Crew Skills are part of the PvE..

wrong..

Re-usables that persist through death are more worth to PvP'ers since they die all the time and spend inbetween 1-10 stims every PvP game depending on how much they die.


they can buy stims/adrenals just like the rest of the non biochem players.


They have to stack up on 10 stims each game just to be safe, That's 10 x 3.500 creds = 35k credits every PvP game just for stims, that are bad compared to the Rakata ones.


oh, and its still "quicker" to gear up to hm ops through pvp than it is pve.


No, People in greens can down every boss in EV normal. I got full columi in one night, Did KP & EV normal in one night and got my items, Was ready for Nightmare by then. Is that harder than to play 5 PvP games a day, buy some bags for the slight chance of getting gear that is worse than the PVE gear that I got?


also, i really have to ask, once you got all that you needed why did you continue to need/greed?


Not relevant..


ive been running hm or better ops since week 2 and there are still people in my raid groups who need them for crafting things for there companions and such.


Isn't that cute, PvE people are already crafting gear for their companions while PvP people have to struggle just to get the chance of winning one little BCA to craft their Rakata stims.


it seems that you continuing to pick them up was rather greedy dont you think?


Always greed on everything, In case I get it I can jsut sell it to vendor and get some cash. Still waiting for that Fortitude Augment to appear on AH so I can buy it..

Still not relevant to the discussion..


thats on top of the fact that people generally in that position really dont need the cash either so why exactly you would want to open up that market i really dont understand.


Nice of you to ignore the question in this discussion..
It's unfair to the PvP community that they have to go through PvE just for the chance of getting BCA so they can craft their stims/adrenals, Which is more useful to them than the PvE community since they get more deaths per hour than we do.

Let's put it this way:

If you had to do PvP weeklies to be able to get i.e a BCA bag. Where you have 1/4 chance of getting the BCA that you need for crafting. I can assure that you would complain about it not being fair to you as a PvE player.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 12:05 PM
Did livnThedream actually say "buy the consumables like the rest of the non Biochem users" Really ?!? It's the PVP Biochem CRAFTERS we are talking about dude...along with the cyber techs etc....we don't even care if they only work in WZs or Ilum and whatever other PVP areas come up

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 12:37 PM
Nice of you to ignore the question in this discussion..
It's unfair to the PvP community that they have to go through PvE just for the chance of getting BCA so they can craft their stims/adrenals, Which is more useful to them than the PvE community since they get more deaths per hour than we do.

except it isnt. it isnt a "pvp" only consumable, nor do you get any other mats for it EVER from pvp. it doesnt make sense that you get a special "freebie" just because you dont want to put in the work to enjoy the reward.

Let's put it this way:

If you had to do PvP weeklies to be able to get i.e a BCA bag. Where you have 1/4 chance of getting the BCA that you need for crafting. I can assure that you would complain about it not being fair to you as a PvE player.


i wouldnt be upset that i had to pvp to get it. i would however be upset that i had a 1 time weekly shot with only a 25% chance of acquiring what i was after. however that isnt anywhere close to reality.

livnthedream
02.21.2012, 12:40 PM
Did livnThedream actually say "buy the consumables like the rest of the non Biochem users" Really ?!? It's the PVP Biochem CRAFTERS we are talking about dude...along with the cyber techs etc....we don't even care if they only work in WZs or Ilum and whatever other PVP areas come up

damn right i did. you dont want to put in the miniscule amount of effort to acquire what you claim is so super important then pay the cost. im not biochem, i purchase my items just like the rest of the community because I CHOOSE to not reroll biochem. it really comes down to value.

Tenetke
02.21.2012, 01:06 PM
Forcing someone to run heroics for even a chance of getting one to make Rakata reusables, and then having to get 2 more if you want the "set", is absurd.

Either make it not BoP so I can buy them, or make a way to obtain it via PvP.

I'm not looking to hear if any diehard carebear tells me that my idea is bad for x reason, because it doesn't pertain to you and you should have no say in it. I'm also not looking to hear "TOR is a story driven PvE game with a PvP minigame" because I don't care and it doesn't matter how you play the game, it matters at least in the business sense that Bioware can accommodate the 2 biggest customers who the game is advertised for, PvEers and PvPers.

There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.

I've had a plethora of complaints about the game but I'm not one to cry about things or ragequit, clearly I am still playing. In spite of the fact that my AoE stun doesn't function, all my gear is stacked with useless accuracy, and Surge got nerfed, I still can enjoy the game.

But adding on top the fact that neckbeards who can and want to devote enough time for and enjoy PvE on top of PvP should get a boost in PvP simply because they can get a use out of their Crew Skill, which should inherently be usable by anyone who has it maxed, is downright terrible.

If you don't care about other peoples opinions why post on a public forum? For that matter, what makes you think anyone should care about your opinion when you care about no one elses?

Even then those carebears could easily charge you 2million credits for one, and you would then complain they are too expensive. Make them obtainable for pvp rewards and you invalidate one of the very few reasons to run pve.


Nice of you to ignore the question in this discussion..
It's unfair to the PvP community that they have to go through PvE just for the chance of getting BCA so they can craft their stims/adrenals, Which is more useful to them than the PvE community since they get more deaths per hour than we do.

Let's put it this way:

If you had to do PvP weeklies to be able to get i.e a BCA bag. Where you have 1/4 chance of getting the BCA that you need for crafting. I can assure that you would complain about it not being fair to you as a PvE player.

Coming from someone that loves pvp, you are wrong. BW has always said that PVE would be the focus of the game. They have included pvp, but the focus is pve. They were asked in an interview if a person would be able to level up and play solely through pvp. The answer was "no". That's just how it is in SW.

Now I'm going to give you some advice that you might not like hearing. If the game doesn't suit you, stop trying to change it and find another one. I remember when I came to that conclusion with both WoW, and RIFT. I exclusively pvped in rift, in WoW I did arena/raided. I was miserable for awhile till I realized I couldn't change the game, so I left. I'm having more fun in SW because I'm not trying to change it. If I don't like something I either accept it, or leave.

OriginalPollo
02.21.2012, 01:15 PM
The bottom line is that Biochem is a crafting skill like any other crafting skill. In order to balance giving BCAs for PvP (just to appease Biochem crafters) they/BW would have to also add in Synthweave/Armormech/Cybertech recipes that allow you to create +expertise gear/mods.

You should be happy with the fact your crafting skill makes items that are even usable in PvP areas, I know mine doesn't.

If it's important enough to you, you'll find a way. If it's not, you'll find an excuse.


But to the original point, BCA should be BoP or at a minimum available for purchase with Daily Commendations. It doesn help that the rolls system is jacked up anyways. When two BCAs drop from one boss, there is only a single roll and highest gets both.

That needs to be fixed.

-Cascade-
02.21.2012, 02:00 PM
Again, COULD I do PVE? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself a reusable persists through death stim as a Biochem who only PVP's.

holy crap !


COULD I RAID? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only do HMs.

oh...

COULD I do PvP? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only do PvE.

and...

COULD I do HMs? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only play solo.

just gimme stuff I want... and shut up...really??

Quraswren
02.21.2012, 02:35 PM
I'm Ok with leaving it BOP.

Apparently for PVP they want a least a little less healing or stats or bonuses from crafting skills and the this keeps some gear more in the PVE area than PVP.

So, I can't agree with this. There is nothing wrong with some gear or items being driven more to PVE or PVP and what you see in BOP mats accomplishes that.





Again, COULD I do PVE? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, ...


holy crap !


COULD I RAID? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only do HMs.

oh...

COULD I do PvP? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only do PvE.

and...

COULD I do HMs? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself really cool gear when I only play solo.

just gimme stuff I want... and shut up...really??





I just wanted to quote this cause it such a good post and people shouldn't miss it.

Akella
02.21.2012, 03:21 PM
I would really hate to see BOP removed from these. It can be difficult enough as it is to win the roll on them. If BOP is removed everyone who doesn't even need them to craft anything will be rolling to sell them.

Sqyre
02.21.2012, 03:27 PM
Again, COULD I do PVE? Probably... the fact of the matter is I DON'T WANT TO, and I should not be completely gimped of crafting myself a reusable persists through death stim as a Biochem who only PVP's. My crafting profession should not be tied to what game mode I wish to play in. Lets make this more ridiculous so some people might get the picture. If I wanted to do nothing but Space missions, I would not want to have to run PVP or PVE in order to get starship upgrades.

Also since I've heard this argument to my fill, why do people assume that because I can pop in and make a post to a message board I have time to run PVE content? Can I please run a hard mode for you since you seem to think it would be acceptable for me to check back every 20 minutes or so and attack once then go back to other things I had to do?


As mentioned many times before crafting is a pve minigame, if you want to reap the rewards from pve you should be expected to do some pve. However you are wanting to change something to suit your likes and dislikes, that is not how it works, perhaps you should learn to enjoy running some pve or just learn to deal with lifes little adventures.

I personally hate the automatic instant replay ruling on interceptions in the NFL and I have probably written 100 letters concerning that and it has not changed anything.

Oh and the argument "I Don't want to" is an invalid argument btw.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 03:37 PM
As mentioned many times before crafting is a pve minigame, if you want to reap the rewards from pve you should be expected to do some pve. However you are wanting to change something to suit your likes and dislikes, that is not how it works, perhaps you should learn to enjoy running some pve or just learn to deal with lifes little adventures.

I personally hate the automatic instant replay ruling on interceptions in the NFL and I have probably written 100 letters concerning that and it has not changed anything.

Oh and the argument "I Don't want to" is an invalid argument btw.

Care to give me a link to that particular bioware quote ?

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 03:41 PM
I'm 95% sure when I get on my comp I can find one that states they want everyone to enjoy and participate in the crafting system.

malichae
02.21.2012, 04:00 PM
Lets be honest bop is dumbest idea ever invented in an mmo . If someone gets something and wants to sell it why should they not be able to ? . pvp'ers should not be forced to pve and visa versa end of story .

natehinn
02.21.2012, 04:08 PM
I just think its funny that I have an inventory full of Bio alloy, alien cubes, power cells, etc. Its not hard to get them, do the work QQ.

xtoo
02.21.2012, 04:24 PM
You know Black Talon/Esseles Hard Mode is really quite easy. If you have full PvP gear you'll have no problem doing it in less than an hour. Just get the alloy from that, the final boss drops it every time.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 04:51 PM
You know Black Talon/Esseles Hard Mode is really quite easy. If you have full PvP gear you'll have no problem doing it in less than an hour. Just get the alloy from that, the final boss drops it every time.
I appreciate that tip.. spent 3 hours on some crappy harmode yesterday (wiping multiple times because we suck at it) and one didn't drop.

Sky_walkerPL
02.21.2012, 04:59 PM
Lets be honest bop is dumbest idea ever invented in an mmo . If someone gets something and wants to sell it why should they not be able to ? . pvp'ers should not be forced to pve and visa versa end of story .

True.
And imagine that while ago there were mmos withouth bops which managed to create huge, blooming economy interesting for players, making money have value and players have less grinding while more fun.

ScarletBlaze
02.21.2012, 05:02 PM
True.
And imagine that while ago there were mmos withouth bops which managed to create huge, blooming economy interesting for players, making money have value and players have less grinding while more fun.

Very true and that is what the game should be about having fun no matter what your playstyle.

Melchiora
02.21.2012, 05:21 PM
Very true and that is what the game should be about having fun no matter what your playstyle.

And there were also MMOs without BoPs where if you wanted to get any item a boss dropped you had to wait in line for hours because of all the people farming it. And that's if people were actually taking turns.

_Zorth_
02.21.2012, 05:54 PM
You know Black Talon/Esseles Hard Mode is really quite easy. If you have full PvP gear you'll have no problem doing it in less than an hour. Just get the alloy from that, the final boss drops it every time.

'
He's still forced to do PvE content for mats..

He wants his Rakata stim, why should he be forced to go through content of the game which he doesn't like for acces to something that is neutral?

Crew skill =/= PvE content

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 06:58 PM
True.
And imagine that while ago there were mmos withouth bops which managed to create huge, blooming economy interesting for players, making money have value and players have less grinding while more fun.

I don't want BOP gone...I want a way To BOP my grenades without doing stuff I don't want to do..Imagine If I could make grenades with a 1 minute CD because of some PVP item.. because Bioware thinks its a great Idea...If PVers want it they have to farm Warzones :eek: and not like that crap Ilum farming they do now...real WZs against real PVPers...doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun for someone that doesn't care for it.

Ill fumble my what through some HMs when I have the time and feel like taking a break from my PVP gear grind but I don't think I should have to...jmo.

Beasters
02.21.2012, 07:00 PM
might have already been posted but


why not just make them purchasable with the tionese crystals everyone has a disproportionate number of

longgrassgrows
02.21.2012, 07:01 PM
I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.

BT HM takes like 20-30 minutes...ohhh noooooooes

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 07:01 PM
might have already been posted but


why not just make them purchasable with the tionese crystals everyone has a disproportionate number ofIm not looking to screw up the PVE economy...let me purchase them with 1000 centurion comms or whatever.

Zekeiele
02.21.2012, 07:03 PM
BT HM takes like 20-30 minutes...ohhh noooooooeswhat one is "BT" ?

GnatB
02.21.2012, 07:37 PM
And there were also MMOs without BoPs where if you wanted to get any item a boss dropped you had to wait in line for hours because of all the people farming it. And that's if people were actually taking turns.

And those MMO's also had multi-day spawn timers and no instances...


Personally, I'm pretty much completely against the concept of BoP. BoP items are about elitist gear grinds and drawing out the "end game" content as long as possible. 'Course, I'm pretty much against what I consider worthless "end game" content too. I'm sort of inclined to feel that when a group kills the big bad boss at the end of instance "X", everybody should get their own item off the boss, and not just one for the whole group. They can then move on to some actual NEW content. Whether that be another/different flashpoint, or another/different game. Would make that whole "need/greed/pass" argument so much more academic.

Abydon
02.21.2012, 08:29 PM
Maybe if it is to remain BOP make it so it's bound to your ACCOUNT not just that particular character. I have my crafting characters and then my playing/gathering characters. Now in order to even roll on one of the Biometrics I have to drop my skills and take up a profession that can use them, which I already have maxed out on my crafting characters. Account bound will keep the economy safe from noob sellers who will sell it for a million times what it's worth, while allowing players to craft for their entire account. If I gotta do it though I don't really care. Not THAT hard to level up synthweaving or artificing to get the items I want/need.
You would think it's rocket science or brain surgery from some of these posts though. Just a bunch of QQers who need everything given to them now and then will complain because everything is too easy. Grow up and put your big girl pants on....difficulty should remain hard for everything. WoW is needing their customers back so if this is too tough go back and nerf the heck out of that game...but leave this one alone. You people have done enough nerfing damage to this game as it is with you incessant crying about " ohhh! this is so unfair! he can make more money than I can cuz I didn't pick up slicing to begin with to give myself a cred base to craft with!!!!". If you want fair wait until August/September...it will be in town and you can hide under mommy's skirt cuz you are too scared to man up and ride the big-boy rides. Shoulda stuck to Mario Cart nooblettes!

ZudetGambeous
02.21.2012, 10:36 PM
If you don't want to work for PvE items because you don't like to PvE that really isn't our problem.

There are stims obtained via PvP that heal for even more then the rakata stims and are even cheaper to obtain... Why can't I use those in PvE?

Lashknife
02.21.2012, 11:23 PM
'
He's still forced to do PvE content for mats..

He wants his Rakata stim, why should he be forced to go through content of the game which he doesn't like for acces to something that is neutral?

Crew skill =/= PvE content




This would be a valid argument if BCAs weren't used to make Rakata gear as well.

_Zorth_
02.21.2012, 11:56 PM
This would be a valid argument if BCAs weren't used to make Rakata gear as well.


Rakata gear which in the end is better than BM gear.
Even if it weren't, what difference would it make?

Crew Skills =/= PvE content..

Therefore PvP players should have to put in an equal amount of work in PvP content to get BCA as PvE players put in PvE content to get BCA. Don't see how making them purchasable for champion comms from PvP vendors or random from Champ Bags could hurt anyone?

Would not make it easier, Just allowing the PvP players to get it in a fair way.

If you don't want to work for PvE items because you don't like to PvE that really isn't our problem.

There are stims obtained via PvP that heal for even more then the rakata stims and are even cheaper to obtain... Why can't I use those in PvE?

There are only WZ medpacks & expertise adrenals, No stims.
Crew Skills aren't PvE content btw.

TehMerc
02.22.2012, 12:27 AM
If you don't want to work for PvE items because you don't like to PvE that really isn't our problem.

There are stims obtained via PvP that heal for even more then the rakata stims and are even cheaper to obtain... Why can't I use those in PvE?

Stims aren't pve items, and I doubt crew skills are meant to be pve only. They actually really compliment pvp well since some won't even have contact with planets (I leveled from 25-50 through pvp alone, never got anything past my 3rd companion and still had 400 armstech at the end).

The power adrenals are damned good too once you get to the point where half of the expertise adrenal is wasted. The only point you have is the warzone medpack, but using the Rakata one saves you on medals for about 800 less hp healed, so that's a big plus there too.

No sorry, your logic is pretty horrible.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 01:24 AM
Rakata gear which in the end is better than BM gear.
Even if it weren't, what difference would it make?

Crew Skills =/= PvE content..

Therefore PvP players should have to put in an equal amount of work in PvP content to get BCA as PvE players put in PvE content to get BCA. Don't see how making them purchasable for champion comms from PvP vendors or random from Champ Bags could hurt anyone?

Would not make it easier, Just allowing the PvP players to get it in a fair way.



There are only WZ medpacks & expertise adrenals, No stims.
Crew Skills aren't PvE content btw.


you keep stating that crew skills are not pve content, yet you have failed to show how they are supported by pvp. faulty logic does not a convincing case make.

zalanii
02.22.2012, 01:39 AM
I would like it if Biometric Crystal Alloy was BOE so I had SOME reason to use the GTN.


Seriously, I want to use the GTN but there is little point. Nothing to sell, nothing to buy.

havok_bloodcraft
02.22.2012, 01:42 AM
Use the 48 reusables and deal with it if another guy has the rakata version then he did something to get it that you aren't willing to do. I would like to have rakata gear without having to run ops but not happening. I would like to have BM gear without having to pvp but not happening. And if you can't stomach 45 minutes in hard mode black talon to get one of these I have no sympathy for you. They are not hard to get. I just hope you are on a pvp server because if you are the only guy running without rakata reusables then you are doing something wrong because everyone else can figure it out. Seriously if you cannot hack it in pvp with the 48 reusables then the rakata ones aren't going to help L2P or find another pvp environment because there is no invincible stim or 1 shot adrenal.

God I am so tired of all the pvp whining about wanting everything easier.

Abydon
02.22.2012, 01:51 AM
Use the 48 reusables and deal with it if another guy has the rakata version then he did something to get it that you aren't willing to do. I would like to have rakata gear without having to run ops but not happening. I would like to have BM gear without having to pvp but not happening. And if you can't stomach 45 minutes in hard mode black talon to get one of these I have no sympathy for you. They are not hard to get. I just hope you are on a pvp server because if you are the only guy running without rakata reusables then you are doing something wrong because everyone else can figure it out. Seriously if you cannot hack it in pvp with the 48 reusables then the rakata ones aren't going to help L2P or find another pvp environment because there is no invincible stim or 1 shot adrenal.

God I am so tired of all the pvp whining about wanting everything easier.

What he said!

LadyRaven
02.22.2012, 07:00 AM
If you can get a required material for a universal Crew Skill through only one form of content, it isn't a good marketing ploy to force your consumers to trudge through content they do not enjoy. After all, they are paying for the content. You can never make everyone happy, but I think it is an acceptable argument that PvP and PvE deserve equal value rewards, whether it be through gear or crafting materials, in one way or another, since those two concepts largely define the basis behind MMO gaming.

100000x this.

Do not force people to raid or PvP.

Make all crafting materials available via missions/gathering. I don't really care about BoP, although I think some things should be changed (Cybertech mounts etc.) but whatever.

DustomaticGXC
02.22.2012, 07:36 AM
100000x this.

Do not force people to raid or PvP.

Make all crafting materials available via missions/gathering. I don't really care about BoP, although I think some things should be changed (Cybertech mounts etc.) but whatever.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. You choose to do things based on your goals. PvPers complaining that they have to PvE to get things they want is like me complaining that I shouldn't need to do PvP to get Warzone Commendations. After all, I pay for the content, amirite?

Bloodcharged
02.22.2012, 07:37 AM
I would like it if Biometric Crystal Alloy was BOE so I had SOME reason to use the GTN.


Seriously, I want to use the GTN but there is little point. Nothing to sell, nothing to buy.

Agreed, I wish they were BoE as well so I could have my Alt Powertechs Armormech Rakata Belt/Bracers crafted once he hit 50 :)

DustomaticGXC
02.22.2012, 07:40 AM
Crew Skills =/= PvE content..

Crew Skills aren't PvE content btw.


Um... yes they are. When's the last time you heard of somebody sending out a companion on a mission that failed because another player somehow inhibited them?

Ka-tel
02.22.2012, 07:40 AM
Please don't make them tradeable. I don't want people like the TS to get what they want.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 08:11 AM
I can't understand why all this ************ about biochem things is coming from pvpers. Pvpers are the group of players that are the least dependent on biochem. Pvpers have:

1) A superior adrenal consumable (very cheap, earned through pvp).

2) A superior healing consumable (again very cheap and earned through pvp)

3) So all pvpers are missing is the stim. Fun fact, exotech stims are BETTER than the reusable rakata stim and are usable by anyone. So you can spend 15-20k for a 2 hour stim that persists through death.

Because of the above pvpers don't need any crafting skill at all and are free to take 3 gathering skills to earn free credits while pvping which will easily cover the cost of your 1 stim every 2 hours. You also have 3 items which are better in every way for pvp than the reusable rakata items.

So what is the point of this thread again?

_Zorth_
02.22.2012, 08:32 AM
you keep stating that crew skills are not pve content, yet you have failed to show how they are supported by pvp. faulty logic does not a convincing case make.


They benefit both PvE players & PvP players. Biochem benefits PvP even more, due to the persisting through death stims and re-usables, since they die much more than PvE players. The other crafting skills are useless unless you want the BiS items, You can just run a few EV/KP and ta-da, you have some columi gear, relics & a new weapon.

The system was maybe designed more for PvE players since it's easier for them to get the mats and there is no expertise gear to craft, But PvP gear is bad compared to PvE gear and BioChem benefits PvP players more.

Would be nice if you provide some suggestions as to what would be so terrible if BCA became tradeable or purchasable from PvP vendors for a high amount of PvP comms?

Um... yes they are. When's the last time you heard of somebody sending out a companion on a mission that failed because another player somehow inhibited them?

Never said it was PvP content either.
You seem to think that things in this game are either PvP or PvE. Crew Skills benefit PvE players and PvP players equally. Biochem benefots PvP players more than PvE players.



So what is the point of this thread again?


What could go wrong if BCA got tradeable?

CulannHS
02.22.2012, 08:36 AM
Forcing someone to run heroics for even a chance of getting one to make Rakata reusables, and then having to get 2 more if you want the "set", is absurd.

Either make it not BoP so I can buy them, or make a way to obtain it via PvP.

I'm not looking to hear if any diehard carebear tells me that my idea is bad for x reason, because it doesn't pertain to you and you should have no say in it. I'm also not looking to hear "TOR is a story driven PvE game with a PvP minigame" because I don't care and it doesn't matter how you play the game, it matters at least in the business sense that Bioware can accommodate the 2 biggest customers who the game is advertised for, PvEers and PvPers.

There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.

I've had a plethora of complaints about the game but I'm not one to cry about things or ragequit, clearly I am still playing. In spite of the fact that my AoE stun doesn't function, all my gear is stacked with useless accuracy, and Surge got nerfed, I still can enjoy the game.

But adding on top the fact that neckbeards who can and want to devote enough time for and enjoy PvE on top of PvP should get a boost in PvP simply because they can get a use out of their Crew Skill, which should inherently be usable by anyone who has it maxed, is downright terrible.

First off let me state for the record:

I DO NOT HAVE BIOCHEM ON ANY CHARACTER!

That said...

I agree with this. Make the damn things BoE already. I've got a 400 Cybertech, 400 Armstech and a 400 Artificer, and I literally cannot make any of their best stuff unless I do ops or HMs. That's a Rift trick that ended up exploding in Trion's faces spectacularly. Worse, if I get one on one of my characters, then I can't give it to another of mine to make something that another may need.

It's not a smart design decision BW. Sorry but it's not and I'm not sure you have any way to rationalize or explain this otherwise. Right now it's just a huge cluster-F that needs resolving by altering BOP to BOE.

Trimanir
02.22.2012, 08:41 AM
I'd make battlemaster bag drop PVP recipies and linked rare ressources (different or not from PVE ones)

Rare ressources should NOT be BOP, if it's the case a crafter need more HM and OP run than a normal PVE player to get good at his craft (that doesnt make sence)

If they really want to restrict crafting, make an alloy bind to looter but tradable to crafter, so it can craft an already bound item with it (bound to mat looter).



Also rakata recipies should not be on sale at the vendors.

Tenetke
02.22.2012, 08:44 AM
First off let me state for the record:

I DO NOT HAVE BIOCHEM ON ANY CHARACTER!

That said...

I agree with this. Make the damn things BoE already. I've got a 400 Cybertech, 400 Armstech and a 400 Artificer, and I literally cannot make any of their best stuff unless I do ops or HMs. That's a Rift trick that ended up exploding in Trion's faces spectacularly. Worse, if I get one on one of my characters, then I can't give it to another of mine to make something that another may need.

It's not a smart design decision BW. Sorry but it's not and I'm not sure you have any way to rationalize or explain this otherwise. Right now it's just a huge cluster-F that needs resolving by altering BOP to BOE.

It is smart if you want people to participate in end game pve. Either they do it and get their mats, or they don't and they complain. By making them sellable you make it so that people who play the market can now do just that and never have to do any of the end game pve content. Which robs those who do that content a valuable part of the market. Right now the people that do end game pve get special rewards for putting in the effort. Those that don't shouldn't have access to it.

CulannHS
02.22.2012, 08:56 AM
It is smart if you want people to participate in end game pve. Either they do it and get their mats, or they don't and they complain. By making them sellable you make it so that people who play the market can now do just that and never have to do any of the end game pve content. Which robs those who do that content a valuable part of the market. Right now the people that do end game pve get special rewards for putting in the effort. Those that don't shouldn't have access to it.

Forcing someone to participate in something they may not want to is not smart. End of story.

Some people may not have the time, or inclination to become involved in ops or HMs to get these things, and for BW to force people to do so is just poor, with no legitimate justification.

Insofar as robbing people who do that content, that's facetious and a extraordinarily poor argument. Unless I'm mistaken...I thought actual gear and credits dropped in ops and HMs. Was I incorrect? Don't the people who run those get shots at looting gear and credits while doing the HMs? (Yeah, that's sarcasm)

Bottom line is that it doesn't hurt anyone. As I said before, Trion tried this and it blew up in their faces. It's a poor design decision and subsequent implementation to begin with. The best approach to making it a little more palatable is to make them BoE.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 08:58 AM
.... Biochem benefots PvP players more than PvE players....


How you can say this with a straight face? Pvpers already get almost free adrenals and health packs which blow away the rakata reusables in pvp. The only thing they need to buy is a stim, which lasts through death and is usable by anyone. So pvpers can just pick up gathering skills to max credits while pvping.

A pve player is still almost forced into biochem because of the adrenal situation, there just aren't enough of them available due to crafting costs and time, so even if you had unlimited credits you would have trouble supplying yourself enough adrenals to use whenever you wanted.

DarthWalt
02.22.2012, 09:08 AM
I have issue with this as well.


Arty needs these items to craft our end game items. However our LS are lvl 48. 2 lvls below what you need to do HM FP. So you want people to be geared enough to go get these items needed to craft items that are now below our useable range.

You then expect us to do so and sell the unuasble items to lower lvl players. Why not just make the Items BoE or Bind on Use so they can be sold to lower lvl players so they can craft the item themselves.



I just dont see the logic in BoP items being used to make lower lvl gear then whats needed to achive winning the FP.

For you WoWheads it would be like needing a gear score of 5000k to do a run for an item what if you equip will ower your Gear score. Thats just dumb.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 09:18 AM
Forcing someone to participate in something they may not want to is not smart. End of story.

im a pacifist. i dont want to have to kill things. i only want to play through my class story, so can i just get an auto skip feature so thats all i have to play?

strawman aside, that is not how the game is designed. perhaps you are in the wrong place.

Some people may not have the time, or inclination to become involved in ops or HMs to get these things, and for BW to force people to do so is just poor, with no legitimate justification.

to get an above average level of gear you should have to do above average things. you are asking for freebie mats for items that are bis, or in the case of biochem, a huge credit saver.

Bottom line is that it doesn't hurt anyone. As I said before, Trion tried this and it blew up in their faces. It's a poor design decision and subsequent implementation to begin with. The best approach to making it a little more palatable is to make them BoE.

it does though. it makes it harder for those actually running hms/ops for them to acquire (higher demand, same supply) and decreases the overall difficulty of the game itself through making it trivial to gear up. at no time should you be able to ding max level and instantly put on multiple pieces of bis loot. also what are you on about with rift? trion never had a crafting mat tied to either t1/t2 or raids, especially one that was bop.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 09:20 AM
I have issue with this as well.


Arty needs these items to craft our end game items. However our LS are lvl 48. 2 lvls below what you need to do HM FP. So you want people to be geared enough to go get these items needed to craft items that are now below our useable range.

You then expect us to do so and sell the unuasble items to lower lvl players. Why not just make the Items BoE or Bind on Use so they can be sold to lower lvl players so they can craft the item themselves.



I just dont see the logic in BoP items being used to make lower lvl gear then whats needed to achive winning the FP.

For you WoWheads it would be like needing a gear score of 5000k to do a run for an item what if you equip will ower your Gear score. Thats just dumb.

just because its usuable at a lower level doesnt mean its less powerful. in this game gear rating doesnt matter in the slightest. the sheer fact that you brought up any kind of gear level into the discussion shows just how little you not only know about the current system, but the finer points of gearing in mmos in general.

Appletaz
02.22.2012, 09:26 AM
I have to agree with the OP. I can understand making the item scarce... because the Rakata item is pretty awesome once it is made. But free enterprise should allow it to be sold on the GTN! Right now I'm regretting that at 50 I decided to make another character my main and the one with biochem at 400 is an alt.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 09:55 AM
I wish I could buy them with centurion tokens. After you are champ geared they are kind of pointless.

I wish I could just buy them with credits.

I'm just no fan of BoP items in MMOs anymore.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:10 AM
It is smart if you want people to participate in end game pve. Either they do it and get their mats, or they don't and they complain. By making them sellable you make it so that people who play the market can now do just that and never have to do any of the end game pve content. Which robs those who do that content a valuable part of the market. Right now the people that do end game pve get special rewards for putting in the effort. Those that don't shouldn't have access to it.

So you want to bolster the elitist community instead of fostering competitive growth in the player run market and server economy?

I see.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 10:14 AM
So you want to bolster the elitist community instead of fostering competitive growth in the player run market and server economy?

I see.

i see you being more elitist than the general community with that very statement. you dont like bop, fine. if the other current mmos that are working off from this model are any indication they will go boe as soon as the next content tier comes out to help foster "catch up".

as has been stated they are already very fair in how to get them. the only person stopping you from getting them is you.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:15 AM
How you can say this with a straight face? Pvpers already get almost free adrenals and health packs which blow away the rakata reusables in pvp. The only thing they need to buy is a stim, which lasts through death and is usable by anyone. So pvpers can just pick up gathering skills to max credits while pvping.

A pve player is still almost forced into biochem because of the adrenal situation, there just aren't enough of them available due to crafting costs and time, so even if you had unlimited credits you would have trouble supplying yourself enough adrenals to use whenever you wanted.

Locking crafting materials in only a very specific portion of the game is a bad idea, regardless of what portion they are locked in or what crafting skill they are for.

I was very disappointed to see the alloys be another frozen orb all over again. The only crafting material that should be BoP or rare should be the restrictive dropped piece used in a system where crafters actually make the PvE end game set gear. You take the dropped material to a crafter and they make you the piece.

Otherwise, no crafting materials should be BoP or locked up in a specific area of the game. Crew missions should give a chance at getting one and they should be purchasable with daily commendation, if not simply BoE to be sold on the galactic market.

The galactic market is really a joke right now.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:23 AM
i see you being more elitist than the general community with that very statement. you dont like bop, fine. if the other current mmos that are working off from this model are any indication they will go boe as soon as the next content tier comes out to help foster "catch up".

as has been stated they are already very fair in how to get them. the only person stopping you from getting them is you.

How am I being elitist when I want Bioware to revert a policy that generally encourages elitism?

Alloys are not very fair in how you get them. My trooper had the Rakata recipes at level 40. I had epic endowment implants (lvl 45) waiting in the cargo hold at level 40. Those Rakata recipes are level 48. You can't run hardmode flashpoints before 50. Do you see some small inconsistency there at all?

BoP items forcibly corral players into doing content they may or may not even want to do just to get the item. Sometimes, these players are not even well geared enough to be trying this content in the first place. Once completed, the crafter is at the whim of the group for whether or not they even get the BoP item when it dropped.

Look, I'm not going as far as to say that set pieces should be BoE. They should be BoA for sure, but I'm not saying BoE. Crafting materials in this game are different though. They should all be BoE, along with no raid dropped schematics. Schematics should be discovered through reverse engineering - so crafting is detached from PvE or PvP and a completely different progression path on its own.

I was so excited to hit 400 biochem and make my way to the trainer. I trained several rakata recipes because I am a collector at heart. I wanted to know all of them. I looked at what I needed to make the Rakata stuff and set off to the galactic market to find an alloy. None to be found. I had to go to Torhead - where I quickly found that it was the Frozen Orb from WoW all over again.

My hopes for a good crafting system died right there. Placing BoP crafting materials in PvE or PvP sentences the crafting system to never being more than a sideshow at best. With a crew mission system, I do not understand how such an error could ever be made - what better reward could there be for a crafter than for their companion to bring back that alloy as part of the mission reward?

Graverobbin
02.22.2012, 10:25 AM
I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.

I'm a PvPer, but this is not a PvP based game. Do some PvE for what you want or just make due with what you have at your disposal.

WoW PvPers had this silly idea that PvP was more macho and that they were the superior player than those that chose to play the game as a whole.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 10:26 AM
Locking crafting materials in only a very specific portion of the game is a bad idea, regardless of what portion they are locked in or what crafting skill they are for.

I was very disappointed to see the alloys be another frozen orb all over again. The only crafting material that should be BoP or rare should be the restrictive dropped piece used in a system where crafters actually make the PvE end game set gear. You take the dropped material to a crafter and they make you the piece.

Otherwise, no crafting materials should be BoP or locked up in a specific area of the game. Crew missions should give a chance at getting one and they should be purchasable with daily commendation, if not simply BoE to be sold on the galactic market.

The galactic market is really a joke right now.

i disagree entirely. they already DO make endgame level gear. virtually every piece that requires them is bis. asking them to be freebies that are freely tradeable is much more hurtful to the game than setting them free. they considerably lower the barrier to entry and make getting "to good" of gear to easy in its current state. making them even easier to obtain is silly.

in what way is the market a joke? most of the issues i see with the market are due to misinformation more than anything. too many people who dont understand what stats actually do and how to get them, on top of training from other games that frankly doesnt work in this one.

i get into arguments with people in trade a fair bit over the silliest things, like people thinking that gear rating is everything, or that accuracy is required for sorc/sage. its quite silly. on top of that they come here and everyone and their mother yells at them to go biochem when frankly its not an end all be all skill like many preach.

Phoboo
02.22.2012, 10:29 AM
Yes it would be nice if it was BoE, so people can sell it on the GTN

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:37 AM
i disagree entirely. they already DO make endgame level gear. virtually every piece that requires them is bis. asking them to be freebies that are freely tradeable is much more hurtful to the game than setting them free. they considerably lower the barrier to entry and make getting "to good" of gear to easy in its current state. making them even easier to obtain is silly.

in what way is the market a joke? most of the issues i see with the market are due to misinformation more than anything. too many people who dont understand what stats actually do and how to get them, on top of training from other games that frankly doesnt work in this one.

i get into arguments with people in trade a fair bit over the silliest things, like people thinking that gear rating is everything, or that accuracy is required for sorc/sage. its quite silly. on top of that they come here and everyone and their mother yells at them to go biochem when frankly its not an end all be all skill like many preach.

At this point:
-There is a small market for stims/medpacks.
-No market for adrenals.
-No market for barrels/armoring mods as they are outclassed by dailies.
-I can't find aim mods on my server's GLM to save my life - though it's bleeding willpower mods.
-Almost all end-game gear is BoP, either through commendations or tokens. There is a piece or two that is crafted, but only critted (aug slots). The rest is nigh worthless.
-The rare material for those pieces is BoP and cannot be sold on the GLM.
-The RE system is bugged with some crafters going into hundreds of combines without a single new schematic discovery. Even if they do discover a schematic, it has a chance to be one that is already known (/rolleyes).

Thanks for admitting that you argue in /trade. That tells me a lot about what type of player you are. :)

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 10:38 AM
Alloys are not very fair in how you get them. My trooper had the Rakata recipes at level 40. I had epic endowment implants (lvl 45) waiting in the cargo hold at level 40. Those Rakata recipes are level 48. You can't run hardmode flashpoints before 50. Do you see some small inconsistency there at all?

BoP items forcibly corral players into doing content they may or may not even want to do just to get the item. Sometimes, these players are not even well geared enough to be trying this content in the first place. Once completed, the crafter is at the whim of the group for whether or not they even get the BoP item when it dropped.

so you are more whining about the item requirements on the items themselves? you would feel better if it was lvl 50 required instead? also, your complaints about gear are truly silly. the barrier to entry is already SUPER low. base "48" blues more than meet the gear requirements. as to wether or not they "should" drop from higher level places is a matter of opinion we will have to disagree on. you want raid level loot, you already are getting a free leg to loot that is a step above the level of the content, how many tiers do you really want to skip?

Look, I'm not going as far as to say that set pieces should be BoE. They should be BoA for sure, but I'm not saying BoE. Crafting materials in this game are different though. They should all be BoE, along with no raid dropped schematics. Schematics should be discovered through reverse engineering - so crafting is detached from PvE or PvP and a completely different progression path on its own.

i wholeheartedly disagree. boa in general is stupid. especially for this game that doesnt have the added requirement of rep grinds etc. if you want items on a character, PLAY THAT CHARACTER.

as to crafting being its own standalone playstyle no. it doesnt fit the theme of this game nor should it. by design. you are playing a hero, and frankly, a shop owner isnt one.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 10:48 AM
At this point:
-There is a small market for stims/medpacks.
-No market for adrenals.
-No market for barrels/armoring mods as they are outclassed by dailies.
-I can't find aim mods on my server's GLM to save my life - though it's bleeding willpower mods.
-Almost all end-game gear is BoP, either through commendations or tokens. There is a piece or two that is crafted, but only critted (aug slots). The rest is nigh worthless.
-The rare material for those pieces is BoP and cannot be sold on the GLM.
-The RE system is bugged with some crafters going into hundreds of combines without a single new schematic discovery. Even if they do discover a schematic, it has a chance to be one that is already known (/rolleyes).

Thanks for admitting that you argue in /trade. That tells me a lot about what type of player you are. :)

there is a market for stims, medpacks, and adrenals. i personally buy all of them. not only that but it feeds into the very point i brought up above and you cleverly attempted to dismiss. player ignorance has done far more damage to the system than anything that is actually wrong with it. case in point, you do relize that the bis ear/implants for sage/sorc is actually crafted right? they dont require a bop material. on top of that you yourself are spreading more misinformation by claiming that anything that isnt bis is worthless. do you really understand how absolutely tiny the percentage is that actually achieve "bis" for any given tier is? the current well itemized pieces of crafted loot is already at worse columni level, most pieces are within 3 points of rakata, with a few actually surpassing.

also, you know the re system is bugged, why are you continuing to slog through it? are you honestly that insane? stock up on mats, or sell what you currently have. you shouldnt be attempting to continue to push a system that is obviously broken.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:49 AM
so you are more whining about the item requirements on the items themselves? you would feel better if it was lvl 50 required instead? also, your complaints about gear are truly silly. the barrier to entry is already SUPER low. base "48" blues more than meet the gear requirements. as to wether or not they "should" drop from higher level places is a matter of opinion we will have to disagree on. you want raid level loot, you already are getting a free leg to loot that is a step above the level of the content, how many tiers do you really want to skip?

Consistency is the mark of a professional.

Making level 48 recipes require materials that only drop from level 50 content is not consistent and by extension, not professional.

I could say a lot more here, but I'll just stop at that.


i wholeheartedly disagree. boa in general is stupid. especially for this game that doesnt have the added requirement of rep grinds etc. if you want items on a character, PLAY THAT CHARACTER.

As a player, I put in the time and effort to acquire that item and gear. BoP was originally designed to prevent players from just buying their way to end-game gear. The game it was originally implemented in (Everquest 1) was not a game of alts. It took too long to level a single character to max level so very few players had end-game geared mains and alts at the same time. BoA was never a factor there.

This game is different. Bioware expects you to level many alts. The entire Legacy system bolsters that game design and BoA gear and items will be necessary to make that happen.

Sorry that you believe otherwise.


as to crafting being its own standalone playstyle no. it doesnt fit the theme of this game nor should it. by design. you are playing a hero, and frankly, a shop owner isnt one.

Crafting and crew missions (outside of slicing and underworld trading) make no sense anyway for most classes. As the commander of Havoc squad, never, in a thousand years, am I going to send my whole squad off on their own to various planets to gather dinky materials to return and try to build things on my ship.

Negative.

Now what I might do as the most elite squad CO is try to steal Imperial tech or sabotage their efforts at researching new technology, but it makes no sense for these high profile companions of mine to be going on gardening missions to recover chunks of metal or psychedelic fungus spores when there are far more important things to do be done in the first place.

This isn't the case though. Crafting was made to fit because it is an expectation in an MMO. It makes little sense story wise and is there as something for the player to do. If crafting were bound to the story theme, then all of our healer companions would automatically be biochems. At least one of our DPS companions would likely be armstechs. Our tank companions would be armortechs and our droids (for those that have them) would be cybertechs. That's not the case though.

Crafting is independent of the story line and should also not be dependent on PvE or PvP for any of its required materials or schematics.

Girltank
02.22.2012, 10:50 AM
now imagine if you were armormech and the armor you can make is worse than the pvp armor you can get but you need 5 crystals instead of 3......

I do agree that it is a bit silly they mixed pve with crafting but I understand why with biochem as it is a permanent and powerful increase to your character.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 10:52 AM
there is a market for stims, medpacks, and adrenals. i personally buy all of them. not only that but it feeds into the very point i brought up above and you cleverly attempted to dismiss. player ignorance has done far more damage to the system than anything that is actually wrong with it. case in point, you do relize that the bis ear/implants for sage/sorc is actually crafted right? they dont require a bop material. on top of that you yourself are spreading more misinformation by claiming that anything that isnt bis is worthless. do you really understand how absolutely tiny the percentage is that actually achieve "bis" for any given tier is? the current well itemized pieces of crafted loot is already at worse columni level, most pieces are within 3 points of rakata, with a few actually surpassing.

also, you know the re system is bugged, why are you continuing to slog through it? are you honestly that insane? stock up on mats, or sell what you currently have. you shouldnt be attempting to continue to push a system that is obviously broken.

I have personally constructed and reverse engineered almost 100 of those implants.

I have discovered exactly ONE epic implant schematic in those 100 reverse engineer attempts. I was making DPS implants and I discovered a tanking schematic.

Yay me.

Also, those implants are almost worthless unless they crit and have the augment slot. Out of all the implants that I have made (again, 100+ now), maybe 10 of those have crit.

Crafting needs help. I could live with a BoP material if getting the material was the only "RNG" involved with crafting in general. It's not though. There are several negatives adding up here that leads to a less than satisfactory experience.

Sqyre
02.22.2012, 10:53 AM
I appreciate that tip.. spent 3 hours on some crappy harmode yesterday (wiping multiple times because we suck at it) and one didn't drop.

if you can't defeat the content what makes you think that you deserve the reward?

bigheadbrandon
02.22.2012, 11:00 AM
they should just make rakata gear bind on equip so i can buy it because i cant do operations!

Raeln
02.22.2012, 11:07 AM
they should just make rakata gear bind on equip so i can buy it because i cant do operations!

Interesting concept you have there. Why, I suppose it would be like someone acquiring some valuable object, then selling it to someone else for profit.

That sounds oddly like a market-based economy.


... and we wonder why TOR's economy is so poor.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 11:09 AM
Consistency is the mark of a professional.

Making level 48 recipes require materials that only drop from level 50 content is not consistent and by extension, not professional.

I could say a lot more here, but I'll just stop at that.

matter of perspective really. since we honestly dont know what they have planned in terms of details for future releases (legacy) calling this an oversight, unprofessional, or bad design is nothing more than a shot in the dark. frankly it doesnt effect the game enough for me personally to get my panties in a twist over it. im very sorry that you did.

As a player, I put in the time and effort to acquire that item and gear. BoP was originally designed to prevent players from just buying their way to end-game gear. The game it was originally implemented in (Everquest 1) was not a game of alts. It took too long to level a single character to max level so very few players had end-game geared mains and alts at the same time. BoA was never a factor there.

This game is different. Bioware expects you to level many alts. The entire Legacy system bolsters that game design and BoA gear and items will be necessary to make that happen.

Sorry that you believe otherwise.

equating yourself with your character is a fairly common mistake. how legacy is set up currently, and with the scant information we have about it, there is no "downside" to playing an alt character. being able to gear out alts like you currently can companions seems like a waste of the system, and something that bioware doesnt currently intend. as i stated earlier, there is no barrier to playing alts like there is in many other games.

Crafting and crew missions (outside of slicing and underworld trading) make no sense anyway for most classes. As the commander of Havoc squad, never, in a thousand years, am I going to send my whole squad off on their own to various planets to gather dinky materials to return and try to build things on my ship.

Negative.

Now what I might do as the most elite squad CO is try to steal Imperial tech or sabotage their efforts at researching new technology, but it makes no sense for these high profile companions of mine to be going on gardening missions to recover chunks of metal or psychedelic fungus spores when there are far more important things to do be done in the first place.

This isn't the case though. Crafting was made to fit because it is an expectation in an MMO. It makes little sense story wise and is there as something for the player to do. If crafting were bound to the story theme, then all of our healer companions would automatically be biochems. At least one of our DPS companions would likely be armstechs. Our tank companions would be armortechs and our droids (for those that have them) would be cybertechs. That's not the case though.

Crafting is independent of the story line and should also not be dependent on PvE or PvP for any of its required materials or schematics.

you can interpret it this way, or you can take it in terms of both the movies and eu, where we commonly see many characters not only being technically proficient, but actually engaging in such endeavors. how many times did you see han and chewie fixing the falcon, and what exactly did you thing chewie was doing in the bar in mos eisly?

Raeln
02.22.2012, 11:18 AM
matter of perspective really. since we honestly dont know what they have planned in terms of details for future releases (legacy) calling this an oversight, unprofessional, or bad design is nothing more than a shot in the dark. frankly it doesnt effect the game enough for me personally to get my panties in a twist over it. im very sorry that you did.

No, there is no matter of perspective here.

Fact: recipes are level 48.
Fact: required material only found in level 50 content.

It is inconsistent. There is no debate here. Likely, it was just an oversight and the recipe was supposed to be level 50 - if this is the case, it was an unprofessional mistake.


equating yourself with your character is a fairly common mistake.

SWTOR sold itself on being the most immersive MMO to date with voice over questing. This is only successful if Bioware can make the player form a bond with their character and feel, immersed in the game world.


how legacy is set up currently, and with the scant information we have about it, there is no "downside" to playing an alt character. being able to gear out alts like you currently can companions seems like a waste of the system, and something that bioware doesnt currently intend. as i stated earlier, there is no barrier to playing alts like there is in many other games.

Your opinion.

I fully expect Legacy vendors with gear that unlocks depending on Legacy level. While not true BoA gear, they might as well be since all of your characters will be able to access those supposed vendors.


you can interpret it this way, or you can take it in terms of both the movies and eu, where we commonly see many characters not only being technically proficient, but actually engaging in such endeavors. how many times did you see han and chewie fixing the falcon, and what exactly did you thing chewie was doing in the bar in mos eisly?

I don't care one whit for the expanded universe - that is only canon until Lucas wants to do something otherwise. In the movies, I do not remember one time where Hans sent Chewie out to another planet to gather some rare mineral, sample, compound or component to fix or build something. I don't remember Anakin tasking C3P0 with any such long distance missions and none of the "sidekicks" were chemists or scientists at all. They were action movies.

Crafting was hung on the game because it's an MMO. It's expected to be there because of the genre. They then forcibly connected tendrils from crafting to PvE to corral players there because the items they need to make what they want to make is BoP.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 11:26 AM
Biometric alloys only craft PVE items. Why should they be available through pvp?

Name one other crafting mat available through pvp. There aren't even resource nodes in the battleground area of Ilum.

So if you don't want to do any pve, great news you don't have to. Since the biometric alloy is only used for making pve items, even for biochem since the pvp supplied consumables are BETTER, not having them doesn't affect you at all as someone who doesn't ever pve.

They are obviously bop to create supply/demand, which helps boe items made with them sell better on the GTN since there is a lower supply.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that they are ridiculously easy to get as is. I got 1 the first day I hit 50 and 2 more the next day, with very little effort. Now I don't need them anymore at my third day at 50 so I pass, but I could have probly 6-7 of them if I wanted them, 3 days after hitting lvl 50.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 11:39 AM
Biometric alloys only craft PVE items. Why should they be available through pvp?

Name one other crafting mat available through pvp. There aren't even resource nodes in the battleground area of Ilum.

So if you don't want to do any pve, great news you don't have to. Since the biometric alloy is only used for making pve items, even for biochem since the pvp supplied consumables are BETTER, not having them doesn't affect you at all as someone who doesn't ever pve.

They are obviously bop to create supply/demand, which helps boe items made with them sell better on the GTN since there is a lower supply.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that they are ridiculously easy to get as is. I got 1 the first day I hit 50 and 2 more the next day, with very little effort. Now I don't need them anymore at my third day at 50 so I pass, but I could have probly 6-7 of them if I wanted them, 3 days after hitting lvl 50.

Sooo,

I guess the Cybertech Wyntech grenades that have AoE slows, stuns, and knockbacks have no PvP applications at all? They are completely for PvE, eh? seeing that almost all champion mobs/bosses are immune to those effects?

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 11:49 AM
No, there is no matter of perspective here.

Fact: recipes are level 48.
Fact: required material only found in level 50 content.

It is inconsistent. There is no debate here. Likely, it was just an oversight and the recipe was supposed to be level 50 - if this is the case, it was an unprofessional mistake.

i didnt agree nor disagree. there isnt enough data to say it was intended or not. i agree if it is an oversight, it is unprofessional, however there very well could be a method behind the madness.

SWTOR sold itself on being the most immersive MMO to date with voice over questing. This is only successful if Bioware can make the player form a bond with their character and feel, immersed in the game world.

i find this statement funny since it directly contradicts what you stated before. by this statement you dont want boa gear since you will actually be playing your "alts" to get said gear on them.

Your opinion.

I fully expect Legacy vendors with gear that unlocks depending on Legacy level. While not true BoA gear, they might as well be since all of your characters will be able to access those supposed vendors.

where did you grab this snippet from, i personally havent seen anything at all about flat out legacy vendors, especially ones with gear. everything i have seen from legacy has been about non combat upgrades.

I don't care one whit for the expanded universe - that is only canon until Lucas wants to do something otherwise. In the movies, I do not remember one time where Hans sent Chewie out to another planet to gather some rare mineral, sample, compound or component to fix or build something. I don't remember Anakin tasking C3P0 with any such long distance missions and none of the "sidekicks" were chemists or scientists at all. They were action movies.

Crafting was hung on the game because it's an MMO. It's expected to be there because of the genre. They then forcibly connected tendrils from crafting to PvE to corral players there because the items they need to make what they want to make is BoP.

eu is just as much cannon as the films. heck, george himself has rewritten film cannon aswell (han shot first amirite). i mean honestly you are correct, this is all opinion. you dont like the current crafting system. you want something that is a stand alone playstyle unto itself. you hate raiding in general and dont want any kind of serious competitive pvp. essentially you want a swg 2.0 which this game isnt and i hope will never be.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 11:54 AM
Sooo,

I guess the Cybertech Wyntech grenades that have AoE slows, stuns, and knockbacks have no PvP applications at all? They are completely for PvE, eh? seeing that almost all champion mobs/bosses are immune to those effects?

he never stated that they were entirely for pve without any pvp implications. however he is very correct that pvp in no way supports crew skills in any way. the grenades and stims are pretty much the only things that are "effective" in pvp.

by your very argument EVERYTHING in the game is pvp, since i can use it in a pvp scenario, even though i didnt do any pvp to acquire it.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 11:58 AM
i didnt agree nor disagree. there isnt enough data to say it was intended or not. i agree if it is an oversight, it is unprofessional, however there very well could be a method behind the madness.

There needs be no more data. The facts are what they are.


i find this statement funny since it directly contradicts what you stated before. by this statement you dont want boa gear since you will actually be playing your "alts" to get said gear on them.


With the current incarnation of moddable gear, I could argue that there are many tradeable moddable pieces of gear that can be sent to alts to the point where all they need is to be fed mods and enhancements to keep their gear up to date. Maybe BoA gear might never be required.

My point is, this game encourages playing alts by design - due to the heavy emphasis on story. While playing that specific character, Bioware has done a decent job of getting the player immersed in that character though - my opinion there, though.


where did you grab this snippet from, i personally havent seen anything at all about flat out legacy vendors, especially ones with gear. everything i have seen from legacy has been about non combat upgrades.

There is no snippet. Just extrapolation on what Bioware has done already. They love vendors. There are tons of social vendors, specialty vendors, security vendors, commendation vendors. Bioware loves vendors.

I have no doubt that there will be a Legacy vendor on Fleet.


eu is just as much cannon as the films. heck, george himself has rewritten film cannon aswell (han shot first amirite). i mean honestly you are correct, this is all opinion. you dont like the current crafting system. you want something that is a stand alone playstyle unto itself. you hate raiding in general and dont want any kind of serious competitive pvp. essentially you want a swg 2.0 which this game isnt and i hope will never be.

I've never said that I hate raiding. I just do not want it to be the centerpiece of end-game content. It should never be more than any other type of end-game progression - meaning, the same gear awarded by raiding should be available through other end-game playstyles.

I've never said that I do not want any serious competitive PvP. I am entirely against an "Arena" form of PvP, but I have no problems against ranked Warzones as long as gear is awarded according to the position of the ranks. Gear should be as equalized as possible in PvP. Prestige (read: social) items should be the awards for winning those ranked competitions. The success of PvP competitions REQUIRES that all variables except player skill be minimized. The "WoW Arena" was a farce at accomplishing that post Season 2.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 12:00 PM
he never stated that they were entirely for pve without any pvp implications. however he is very correct that pvp in no way supports crew skills in any way. the grenades and stims are pretty much the only things that are "effective" in pvp.

by your very argument EVERYTHING in the game is pvp, since i can use it in a pvp scenario, even though i didnt do any pvp to acquire it.

Um... seriously?

He said, "Biometric alloys only craft PVE items".

His words, not mine. Those grenades are crafted with Biometric alloys and have very limited usage in PvE (outside of Ilum/Belsavis dailies). They are quite handy in PvP, I suspect.

Note: I am not a cybertech.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 12:07 PM
Sorry I forgot about the grenades. One item with a 5 minute cooldown, that is situationaly useful, that you can buy/make consumable versions of, that might be slightly more useful in pvp than in pve.

Please refute anything else I said instead of trying to invalidate my entire post by nitpicking on one crappy item, that has such a long cooldown, it is almost irrelevant.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 12:10 PM
Sorry I forgot about the grenades. One item with a 5 minute cooldown, that is situationaly useful, that you can buy/make consumable versions of, that might be slightly more useful in pvp than in pve.

Please refute anything else I said instead of trying to invalidate my entire post by nitpicking on one crappy item, that has such a long cooldown, it is almost irrelevant.

Reusable rakata buff stim. Persists through death, which occurs a lot in warzones. Yes, there are consumable versions of it.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 12:30 PM
Um... seriously?

He said, "Biometric alloys only craft PVE items".

His words, not mine. Those grenades are crafted with Biometric alloys and have very limited usage in PvE (outside of Ilum/Belsavis dailies). They are quite handy in PvP, I suspect.

Note: I am not a cybertech.

yes seriously. they are only obtained through a pve means. they are not supported in any way shape or form by pvp. should i call my crafted gear "pvp gear" because i pvp in it? also, the grenades in general are mediocre at best in pvp because they have such a long cd.

as to your other post, you are making a ton of assumptions based on incomplete data. there are something like 8k items in the database that would need to be changed just to make you feel better. perhaps it was "overlooked", perhaps in the future we will be able to craft bop items for alts. i personally dont know and neither do you. attempting to call it a fact when its a supposition is silly. same with the legacy vendor you have "extrapolated". the only time we will need a vendor is if they have something to sell, which based on the info we have about legacy right now, makes no sense at all.

I've never said that I hate raiding. I just do not want it to be the centerpiece of end-game content. It should never be more than any other type of end-game progression - meaning, the same gear awarded by raiding should be available through other end-game playstyles.

I've never said that I do not want any serious competitive PvP. I am entirely against an "Arena" form of PvP, but I have no problems against ranked Warzones as long as gear is awarded according to the position of the ranks. Gear should be as equalized as possible in PvP. Prestige (read: social) items should be the awards for winning those ranked competitions. The success of PvP competitions REQUIRES that all variables except player skill be minimized. The "WoW Arena" was a farce at accomplishing that post Season 2.

what you ask for and what you believe should be are next to impossible in this type of game. keeping the 3 balanced when based on gear alone frankly does not compute. ive seen a number of arguments on many forums and the best alternative is to come up with a mystical third stat that isnt wanted in either raiding or pvp. swtor has already given it to you in the form of presence, and its shunned. the community has already decided it doesnt want what you are asking for. presence is an incredibly powerful soloing stat btw, its very arguably the best leveling stat currently available.

whats even better is you started off whining about elitists in the crafting system yet here you are vying for playstyles you enjoy, and wanting only what you enjoy catered to while actively arguing against what others enjoy.

havok_bloodcraft
02.22.2012, 12:56 PM
Use the 48 reusables and deal with it if another guy has the rakata version then he did something to get it that you aren't willing to do. I would like to have rakata gear without having to run ops but not happening. I would like to have BM gear without having to pvp but not happening. And if you can't stomach 45 minutes in hard mode black talon to get one of these I have no sympathy for you. They are not hard to get. I just hope you are on a pvp server because if you are the only guy running without rakata reusables then you are doing something wrong because everyone else can figure it out. Seriously if you cannot hack it in pvp with the 48 reusables then the rakata ones aren't going to help L2P or find another pvp environment because there is no invincible stim or 1 shot adrenal.

God I am so tired of all the pvp whining about wanting everything easier.

^this again. And the only reason people want to use biochem in pvp is because pvp is broken.

It gives you an entire set of gear so you don't need any crafting skill to make equipment.

Your armor never degrades so you don't really have to spend any money.

So obviously they want Reusable stims so they never have to do any non pvp content ever.

These people who don't want to do any non pvp content should never be catered to in any way. They will leave as soon as the next MMO launches and go cry about how those people don't give them everything on a silver platter. The best thing you could ever do for the hardcore pvp gamer is to create a hardcore pvp server type where you select an ac and it gives you a free lv in BM gear with reusable expertise adrenal, exotech stims, and 30% heal pac. and completely remove crewskills and lock raid content on these servers so that it is a whole game ov pvp with everyone in the same gear.

Then anyone who has a pvp issue can go there and pvp balance issues can be addressed and applied to those servers only. Because the hardcore pvp crowd will ruin this game and move on to the next like the locusts they are. That is why there is always a news multiplayer FPS every 6 months and why MMO populations surge at the beginning then fall drastically when another mmo nears launch date.

Murah
02.22.2012, 01:07 PM
My fav thing to do is pvp. For the most part, I dislike pve. I sure as hell don't like having to pve in order to be effective in pvp.

HOWEVER I totally acknowledge that if I'm not willing to take that step, I don't deserve the rewards. I don't want things like Rakatas handed to me. That takes the fun and challenge out of these games.

It's kind of cool to find out someone has an edge, now you want that edge, where'd u get that bro? You had to do WHAT to get that? gdit... fine. I'll go get one too brb.

And yes I am leaving as soon as the next MMO launches because Ilum stinks. It's just base camping, and there's only two factions. What a disappointment.

Raeln
02.22.2012, 01:08 PM
yes seriously. they are only obtained through a pve means. they are not supported in any way shape or form by pvp. should i call my crafted gear "pvp gear" because i pvp in it? also, the grenades in general are mediocre at best in pvp because they have such a long cd.

Long cooldown or not, they are still useful. I'll agree that the cooldown seems excessive though.


as to your other post, you are making a ton of assumptions based on incomplete data. there are something like 8k items in the database that would need to be changed just to make you feel better. perhaps it was "overlooked", perhaps in the future we will be able to craft bop items for alts. i personally dont know and neither do you. attempting to call it a fact when its a supposition is silly. same with the legacy vendor you have "extrapolated". the only time we will need a vendor is if they have something to sell, which based on the info we have about legacy right now, makes no sense at all.

Whatever.

Yes, it's my opinion - I'm completely convinced there will be a legacy vendor.


what you ask for and what you believe should be are next to impossible in this type of game. keeping the 3 balanced when based on gear alone frankly does not compute. ive seen a number of arguments on many forums and the best alternative is to come up with a mystical third stat that isnt wanted in either raiding or pvp. swtor has already given it to you in the form of presence, and its shunned. the community has already decided it doesnt want what you are asking for. presence is an incredibly powerful soloing stat btw, its very arguably the best leveling stat currently available.

I'm not convinced that there really needs to be some distinguishing stat between PvE, PvP and solo gear. At this point, I'd really like to just see one type of gear that can be earned through any of the end-game progression paths. The formulas and talent specs for each type of gameplay should perform the necessary damage reductions/bonuses to compensate.

I'm sure you'll completely ignore the meat and potatoes of that paragraph and post something completely out of context though.


whats even better is you started off whining about elitists in the crafting system yet here you are vying for playstyles you enjoy, and wanting only what you enjoy catered to while actively arguing against what others enjoy.

I've argued that biometric crystal alloy should be made BoE. I haven't "whined" about anything here, except perhaps the number of reverse engineer attempts I've done without discovering schematics. I am pretty sore about that. I don't like wasting time. RNG can line up to create some very frustrating wastes of time sometime.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 01:10 PM
^this again. And the only reason people want to use biochem in pvp is because pvp is broken.

It gives you an entire set of gear so you don't need any crafting skill to make equipment.

Your armor never degrades so you don't really have to spend any money.

So obviously they want Reusable stims so they never have to do any non pvp content ever.

These people who don't want to do any non pvp content should never be catered to in any way. They will leave as soon as the next MMO launches and go cry about how those people don't give them everything on a silver platter. The best thing you could ever do for the hardcore pvp gamer is to create a hardcore pvp server type where you select an ac and it gives you a free lv in BM gear with reusable expertise adrenal, exotech stims, and 30% heal pac. and completely remove crewskills and lock raid content on these servers so that it is a whole game ov pvp with everyone in the same gear.

Then anyone who has a pvp issue can go there and pvp balance issues can be addressed and applied to those servers only. Because the hardcore pvp crowd will ruin this game and move on to the next like the locusts they are. That is why there is always a news multiplayer FPS every 6 months and why MMO populations surge at the beginning then fall drastically when another mmo nears launch date.


this really isnt helping anything. i can make the same disparaging remarks and sweeping generalizations about every major player segment. if anything it isnt the community that broken, its the entire idea of mmos not being built specifically for pvp.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 01:49 PM
Reusable rakata buff stim. Persists through death, which occurs a lot in warzones. Yes, there are consumable versions of it.

I already covered in an earlier post that you can buy exotech stims which are more powerful than the reusable rakata ones, last through death, and last for 2 hours for about 20k. Since you don't have to be biochem to use them you can have 3 gathering crew skills to bring in straight cash/easily sellable mats while you pvp more than covering the 20k per 2 hour cost.

A pvper is actually gimping himself (pve too, but not really comparable due to adrenals) by being biochem and using the reusable rakata items.

CulannHS
02.22.2012, 01:53 PM
im a pacifist. i dont want to have to kill things. i only want to play through my class story, so can i just get an auto skip feature so thats all i have to play?

Doesn't fly, sorry. Base mechanics (currently) of a MMO are built around killing things for XP to advance. Poor analogy, and complete failure as a rebuttal. That's strike one. And let's face it, this swing was wild.


strawman aside, that is not how the game is designed. perhaps you are in the wrong place.

The last resort of the desperate. The infamous "strawman argument" rebuttal. Also a failure because it's not strawman. That's strike two for ya there.


to get an above average level of gear you should have to do above average things. you are asking for freebie mats for items that are bis, or in the case of biochem, a huge credit saver.


Crafted gear (with rare exception) is not going to be as good as gear obtained from raids/HMs. It's entry level so you can participate in those activities. And Biochem isn't the bottom denominator simply because everyone doesn't HAVE Biochem. There are other crew skills that also require this. That's a strike three for ya.


it does though. it makes it harder for those actually running hms/ops for them to acquire (higher demand, same supply) and decreases the overall difficulty of the game itself through making it trivial to gear up. at no time should you be able to ding max level and instantly put on multiple pieces of bis loot. also what are you on about with rift? trion never had a crafting mat tied to either t1/t2 or raids, especially one that was bop.

It doesn't, sorry. It doesn't make it any harder for people running HMs/Ops to acquire their gear. Not only is that facetious, it's patently ridiculous as well. And what you're failing (repeatedly from the looks of it) to realize is that by having those available to crafters, the influx of people who can assist in HMs/Ops would increase simply because entry level gear is more readily available. Remember that next time you're watching general on board the fleet or imperial equivalent and see people griping about a lack of tanks or healers.

And once again, crafted is not BiS. And please, stop with the horrifically poor WoW mentality. It's embarrassing.

As for Rift, the highest levels of crafted gear WERE tied to a mat that you could only acquire by running the heroic version of dungeons (rarely at that) or by doing dailies and blowing a week's worth for -one- of the items needed. If you aren't aware of this then you either A) came into Rift late after they apparently changed it or B) never did any serious crafting in Rift.

Either way, it's moot. Trion did this and it caused a massive amount of feedback because of the selfsame way it was handled as frozen orbs were handled in WoW.

Summarily, in every post where you've attempted to defend BCAs being BoP, you've been shot down, crashed and burned. Every defense you've thrown up has been successfully rebutted by me or another poster here.

The fact remains and it's incontrovertable. BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would only benefit the playerbase as a whole.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 02:03 PM
...And once again, crafted is not BiS. And please, stop with the horrifically poor WoW mentality. It's embarrassing...

...The fact remains and it's incontrovertable. BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would only benefit the playerbase as a whole.

Crit crafted rakata bracers and wrists are in fact bis right now and in patch 1.2 (or whenever they make armorings extractable from epics) crit crafted orange items will be bis for every player of every class, weapons and armor. Crit crafted items don't drop, they are in fact, crafted items that are bis.

BCA's don't need to be boe just because you said so, they are ridiculously easy to get, and the people (armor/weapon crafters) who are stocking up on them now will have billions of credits once the patch hits that let's them craft bis boe gear for every class in the game.

If you want/need them do the work it takes to get them. I have been 50 for 3 days and I have my 3 biochem rakata items made and I have passed on at least 15 bca's that I could have taken if I needed.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 02:10 PM
I'm not convinced that there really needs to be some distinguishing stat between PvE, PvP and solo gear. At this point, I'd really like to just see one type of gear that can be earned through any of the end-game progression paths. The formulas and talent specs for each type of gameplay should perform the necessary damage reductions/bonuses to compensate.

I'm sure you'll completely ignore the meat and potatoes of that paragraph and post something completely out of context though.

not really. to put it simply raiding requires gear progression. if for no other reason than basic encounter design. gear checks alone are required to add variety, and as pve stats grow there reaches a point where pvp stats must also change or pve stats will outscale it. adding similer stats so easily soloable content trivializes raid content to such an extent that it must be badly itemized for raiding (magical stat). trying to say that your "solo" experience isnt easy btw is a logical fallacy. making an encounter hard for one playstyle inevitably leads it to be easy for another, even assuming all of them are specifically crafted for each ac. the class quests for inquisitor for example are much harder for assassins than for sorcerers.

I've argued that biometric crystal alloy should be made BoE. I haven't "whined" about anything here, except perhaps the number of reverse engineer attempts I've done without discovering schematics. I am pretty sore about that. I don't like wasting time. RNG can line up to create some very frustrating wastes of time sometime.

you started off quoting someone and complaining that bop mats do nothing but favor elitists, i personally would call that a whine.

havok_bloodcraft
02.22.2012, 02:30 PM
this really isnt helping anything. i can make the same disparaging remarks and sweeping generalizations about every major player segment. if anything it isnt the community that broken, its the entire idea of mmos not being built specifically for pvp.

A majority of people enjoy both pvp and pve aspects of the game. I do wish they would make an mmo created for the sole purpose of pvp. Mostly just because I am tired of PVPTARDS(people who only pvp and ignore all other aspects of the game) wrecking every game that comes down the pipe because they have adhd and rage issues, and then when they have successfully broken a game they ragequit.

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 02:39 PM
Interesting concept you have there. Why, I suppose it would be like someone acquiring some valuable object, then selling it to someone else for profit.

That sounds oddly like a market-based economy.


... and we wonder why TOR's economy is so poor.I've always thought MMO raid drops should be BoE. If I earned an item by participating in a raid, why shouldn't I be able to sell the item to another player or mail it to an alt if I chose to do so?

It isn't like making items BoE would reduce raiding; for every raid item received, somebody still had to run the raid. If anything, making items BoE might actually increase raiding, because players who are fully geared would still have a reason to raid.

Remulan
02.22.2012, 02:43 PM
I've always thought MMO raid drops should be BoE. If I earned an item by participating in a raid, why shouldn't I be able to sell the item to another player or mail it to an alt if I chose to do so?

It isn't like making items BoE would reduce raiding; for every raid item received, somebody still had to run the raid. If anything, making items BoE might actually increase raiding, because players who are fully geared would still have a reason to raid.

You shouldn't be able to craft items that are better than what drops in nightmare mode raids(crit crafted rakata bracers/belt) without even stepping into a hm fp. If bca's were boe you could actually have better than nightmare gear sitting in your bags waiting for you to hit level 50 since you can level your crew skill to max well before hitting lvl 50. That simply should not be possible, and if you don't agree then mmo's are probably not a game genre you should be playing.

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 02:52 PM
You shouldn't be able to craft items that are better than what drops in nightmare mode raids(crit crafted rakata bracers/belt) without even stepping into a hm fp. If bca's were boe you could actually have better than nightmare gear sitting in your bags waiting for you to hit level 50 since you can level your crew skill to max well before hitting lvl 50. That simply should not be possible, and if you don't agree then mmo's are probably not a game genre you should be playing.Why shouldn't it be possible? It's not like the gear was free; somebody still had to earn it. Who cares what character actually ends up equipping it?

I realize BoP raid gear is an MMO staple, but I don't agree that it necessarily has to be so. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way. In fact, some other MMOs I play are slowly moving towards making fewer items BoP and it's worked out fine so far.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 02:56 PM
Doesn't fly, sorry. Base mechanics (currently) of a MMO are built around killing things for XP to advance. Poor analogy, and complete failure as a rebuttal. That's strike one. And let's face it, this swing was wild.

The last resort of the desperate. The infamous "strawman argument" rebuttal. Also a failure because it's not strawman. That's strike two for ya there.

actually its a perfectly valid analogy. you want something that doesnt currently support crafting (killing things) to support crafting (not killing things). also, you should really learn what a strawman argument actually is. it was stated that they should be boe, i stated no and why, to which you replied "i dont want to so i shouldnt have to". that isnt a rebuttal to any point i made.

Crafted gear (with rare exception) is not going to be as good as gear obtained from raids/HMs. It's entry level so you can participate in those activities. And Biochem isn't the bottom denominator simply because everyone doesn't HAVE Biochem. There are other crew skills that also require this. That's a strike three for ya.

crit crafted rakata belt/bracers, and crit crafted rakata relics would like to have a word. for sorcs/sages also you have crit crafted implants and earpieces that are better than the rakata vendor pieces. also, base crafted pieces for the most part are columni level. come 1.2 both crit crafted guns/lightsabers will be bis (for sorcs/sages lightsabers almost are currently, they are just below rakata). i guess thats all "entry" level though because it isnt bis?

It doesn't, sorry. It doesn't make it any harder for people running HMs/Ops to acquire their gear. Not only is that facetious, it's patently ridiculous as well. And what you're failing (repeatedly from the looks of it) to realize is that by having those available to crafters, the influx of people who can assist in HMs/Ops would increase simply because entry level gear is more readily available. Remember that next time you're watching general on board the fleet or imperial equivalent and see people griping about a lack of tanks or healers.

And once again, crafted is not BiS. And please, stop with the horrifically poor WoW mentality. It's embarrassing.

it does though, much like frozen orbs. right now there are many people that have received all of them they need, they will pass since they have no value. making them boe they now have value so at worst everyone will greed, much more likely need. every single time you run a flashpoint it comes down to that base 25% instead of have a pretty good chance of having better odds. also, out of curiosity which "wow mentality" are you referencing?

As for Rift, the highest levels of crafted gear WERE tied to a mat that you could only acquire by running the heroic version of dungeons (rarely at that) or by doing dailies and blowing a week's worth for -one- of the items needed. If you aren't aware of this then you either A) came into Rift late after they apparently changed it or B) never did any serious crafting in Rift.

Either way, it's moot. Trion did this and it caused a massive amount of feedback because of the selfsame way it was handled as frozen orbs were handled in WoW.

oh, lol. the only thing that you can be talking about are minor cats, which had a chance of dropping from any elite. you usually received more from doing t1/t2 dungeons (more elites there) but i know the majority of my early ones were from farming mathos rep. also, not only were they never bop, but they also never cost anywhere close to a "weeks" worth of badges, unless you were only running 2 heroics a week. also the majority of "high end" items didnt even really require them. there were titans signets for warriors and to a lesser extent rogues, and a mh weapon rune that was arguably worth it till they fixed spotters order. they werent anything close to frozen orbs nor was there a "massive amount" of feedback other than a better way of getting rid of them. its the very reason why they gave apoth the ability to break them and made them required for virtually everything with the crafting update i believe in 1.4.

Summarily, in every post where you've attempted to defend BCAs being BoP, you've been shot down, crashed and burned. Every defense you've thrown up has been successfully rebutted by me or another poster here.

The fact remains and it's incontrovertable. BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would only benefit the playerbase as a whole.

you havent proven or rebutted a single point in this post. you simply repeated "your wrong" a bunch of times and stated "incontrovertible facts" that are in fact wrong. which i have shown with examples.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 02:58 PM
A majority of people enjoy both pvp and pve aspects of the game. I do wish they would make an mmo created for the sole purpose of pvp. Mostly just because I am tired of PVPTARDS(people who only pvp and ignore all other aspects of the game) wrecking every game that comes down the pipe because they have adhd and rage issues, and then when they have successfully broken a game they ragequit.

they have, its called gw2, and with all of the footage and info ive seen from beta, plus the brief on hand time i got with alpha, its going to be awesome. the only gripe i have with it so far is content. i feel what it currently has is pretty shallow. its very much a casuals/pvpers dream game though.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 03:09 PM
Why shouldn't it be possible? It's not like the gear was free; somebody still had to earn it. Who cares what character actually ends up equipping it?

I realize BoP raid gear is an MMO staple, but I don't agree that it necessarily has to be so. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way. In fact, some other MMOs I play are slowly moving towards making fewer items BoP and it's worked out fine so far.

and what type of mmos are those? that kind of system works in some environments (most notably sandbox ones) but this isnt that type of game. free floating raid level loot quickly devalues the rest of whats available. look at the current market you already have people moaning on and on about how crit crafted is the only thing "worth it" because it is the best available. if nightmare mode drops become the norm it not only trivializes all current content, but all current gear aswell. sure getting geared up into "good enough" gear will be easier and cheaper for the majority (assuming you can actually get a hold of it) but how soon after that does the playerbase get bored because "there isnt anything left to do".

getting to a decent gear level in this game is already stupidly quick, and look at how many "bored" people that are around. its one of the things that rift actually did catch flack for, initially it was super quick to get geared, so they did one of their very few smart moves and dialed back the rate at which it could be acquired. gearing after that was actually much smoother.

TehMerc
02.22.2012, 03:19 PM
getting to a decent gear level in this game is already stupidly quick.


Yep, but no matter how easy PvE is in this game, it still really has no bearing on what people here are asking.

GTN could definitely use something to actually sell as well. At the very least it'd be something to spend centurion and champion tokens on.

Molik
02.22.2012, 03:23 PM
i have the set of 3, stim, adrenal, medpac, the alloys werent to hard to get, but however i agree BoP, if you made BOE so much maybe the economy would stablize.

CulannHS
02.22.2012, 03:45 PM
actually its a perfectly valid analogy. you want something that doesnt currently support crafting (killing things) to support crafting (not killing things). also, you should really learn what a strawman argument actually is. it was stated that they should be boe, i stated no and why, to which you replied "i dont want to so i shouldnt have to". that isnt a rebuttal to any point i made.


No it's not even close to valid. Sorry, but that analogy is still a complete failure. And please show me verbatim, where I stated I don't want to so I shouldn't have to. And after you fail to do so, please note that you need to stop putting words in my mouth. If I feel like saying something, I'll do so, please and thank you.

What I DID say was that people should not be forced into something they don't want to do. And there are quite a few reasons why a person may not want to. Outside of the arbitrary dislike of FPs/Ops/HMs, there's also the driving issue that some people may simply not have the gear to pull their weight in a HM/Op. And gaspity-gasp some people know that, and do not want to put themselves in a position where people can potentially berate them for not doing their share of the teamwork involved. Alternatively, it can be because a person simply doesn't want to fail their team. Do some checking..ask around how many real, dedicated healers are impacted when they let a member of their team die. That's the very selfsame concept I'm attempting to describe to you now.


In summary, yes, quite a definite rebuttal, and no words in my mouth please,


crit crafted rakata belt/bracers, and crit crafted rakata relics would like to have a word. for sorcs/sages also you have crit crafted implants and earpieces that are better than the rakata vendor pieces. also, base crafted pieces for the most part are columni level. come 1.2 both crit crafted guns/lightsabers will be bis (for sorcs/sages lightsabers almost are currently, they are just below rakata). i guess thats all "entry" level though because it isnt bis?


See there you go again...making wild asusmptions. In that one quote you use the word "crit" 4 times...crit crafted this, crift crafted that, crit crit crit crit. Who said anything about crit crafted anything? I surely didn't. Are you attempting to put words in my mouth again? Entry level gear is things like oh I dunno, the Armstech blaster pistol called "Gamble" or "Two-Fingers Revenge". Are you realling going to tell me those are better than what you get from tokens/commendations as a result of doing HMs/Ops? Mind you, we're talking non-crit, just so you don't get confused.


it does though, much like frozen orbs. right now there are many people that have received all of them they need, they will pass since they have no value. making them boe they now have value so at worst everyone will greed, much more likely need. every single time you run a flashpoint it comes down to that base 25% instead of have a pretty good chance of having better odds. also, out of curiosity which "wow mentality" are you referencing?

Well for every person who has "all they need" there's a equal amount who have tried and lost the roll as well. Doesn't mean squat. Moving on, those people who don't have the gear to pull their weight in HMs/Ops could at least BUY the BCAs instead of having to resort to being carried, which many will obviously refuse to do.

WoW mentality..you seriously don't know? Seriously? /facepalm. It's the obsession with "best in slot" for everything. And it's beyond those people who min/max...there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion..but when you obsess over min/maxing to a point you surpass it...well...I saw that kind of mentality in largest degree in WoW.


oh, lol. the only thing that you can be talking about are minor cats, which had a chance of dropping from any elite. you usually received more from doing t1/t2 dungeons (more elites there) but i know the majority of my early ones were from farming mathos rep. also, not only were they never bop, but they also never cost anywhere close to a "weeks" worth of badges, unless you were only running 2 heroics a week. also the majority of "high end" items didnt even really require them. there were titans signets for warriors and to a lesser extent rogues, and a mh weapon rune that was arguably worth it till they fixed spotters order. they werent anything close to frozen orbs nor was there a "massive amount" of feedback other than a better way of getting rid of them. its the very reason why they gave apoth the ability to break them and made them required for virtually everything with the crafting update i believe in 1.4.


Sounds good..but so do politicians. Having been in Rift since beta, then I'm going to assume you came into Rift late. Insofar as crafted gear goes, literally everything a rogue would wear required one, including a bow/gun if you chose to use one. When I left Rift, my primary character was a Marksman/Saboteur/Ranger, and quite literally every article I wore required them in order to craft the high end pieces.


you havent proven or rebutted a single point in this post. you simply repeated "your wrong" a bunch of times and stated "incontrovertible facts" that are in fact wrong. which i have shown with examples.

Oh I have, you just evade, dodge and duck better than Atom. Sticking your head in the sand to the reality of the situation won't make it go away. As I said before, the BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would give alot of people the chance to actually step up and become part of that segment of the community doing HMs/Ops.

That is of course, unless you are of the mind that you don't want more people doing HMs/Ops....

Remulan
02.22.2012, 03:58 PM
I did a pug hm BP (one of the more difficult fp's) on the day I hit 50 in my orange modded gear from correlia and ilum/belsavis dailies, then I did a 16m Karagga's Palace clear the next day with barely better gear. We one shot all the bosses in both runs and I got more BCA's than I needed on day 2 of being 50. I was not carried either, though that may be due more to merc's dps potential than my skills.

They can't really make the barrier-to-entry for hm fp's and normal mode raids any lower. But, if they did make BCA's boe then you would have people crafting better gear than what is obtainable in nightmare mode raids before they even hit 50. There is a reason they are bop. They don't want someone having a better than nightmare mode item without even stepping foot in a hm fp.

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 04:04 PM
and what type of mmos are those? that kind of system works in some environments (most notably sandbox ones) but this isnt that type of game. free floating raid level loot quickly devalues the rest of whats available. look at the current market you already have people moaning on and on about how crit crafted is the only thing "worth it" because it is the best available. if nightmare mode drops become the norm it not only trivializes all current content, but all current gear aswell. sure getting geared up into "good enough" gear will be easier and cheaper for the majority (assuming you can actually get a hold of it) but how soon after that does the playerbase get bored because "there isnt anything left to do".

getting to a decent gear level in this game is already stupidly quick, and look at how many "bored" people that are around. its one of the things that rift actually did catch flack for, initially it was super quick to get geared, so they did one of their very few smart moves and dialed back the rate at which it could be acquired. gearing after that was actually much smoother.You are correct in your assumption that I'm referring to sandbox MMOs, but I don't understand why you believe this makes a difference.

You mention "free floating raid level loot," but I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'm assuming you're concerned there would be more raid level loot floating around. If so, I disagree, because there's no reason to assume the total amount of raid gear would increase.

For example, if it takes an average of three raids to get one piece of gear, and if a player named Bob has enough time to run 12 raids a month, then he will obtain, on average, four pieces of gear a month. What does it matter if Bob equips all of that gear on one of his characters or if he splits the gear between two of his characters? It's still the same amount of gear.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 04:43 PM
No it's not even close to valid. Sorry, but that analogy is still a complete failure. And please show me verbatim, where I stated I don't want to so I shouldn't have to. And after you fail to do so, please note that you need to stop putting words in my mouth. If I feel like saying something, I'll do so, please and thank you.

What I DID say was that people should not be forced into something they don't want to do. And there are quite a few reasons why a person may not want to. Outside of the arbitrary dislike of FPs/Ops/HMs, there's also the driving issue that some people may simply not have the gear to pull their weight in a HM/Op. And gaspity-gasp some people know that, and do not want to put themselves in a position where people can potentially berate them for not doing their share of the teamwork involved. Alternatively, it can be because a person simply doesn't want to fail their team. Do some checking..ask around how many real, dedicated healers are impacted when they let a member of their team die. That's the very selfsame concept I'm attempting to describe to you now.
In summary, yes, quite a definite rebuttal, and no words in my mouth please,[quote]

not having very base gear is not an excuse. base 48 blues are more than sufficient to run any hm fp assuming they are correctly itemized. base daily items from belsavis and illum are far better, and "starting" pvp gear is more than sufficient. also, not in one single place are you "forced" to do much of anything. you want something, do what you have to do to do it. in my original analogy that you deem "fail" i want story (just as you want alloys) but i dont want to kill things for xp (just as you dont want to pve to get them). if im not a special snowflake and shouldnt be allowed a skip button then why should you be allowed to be a special snowflake and get your alloys from an activity that doest support crew skills period.


[quote]See there you go again...making wild asusmptions. In that one quote you use the word "crit" 4 times...crit crafted this, crift crafted that, crit crit crit crit. Who said anything about crit crafted anything? I surely didn't. Are you attempting to put words in my mouth again? Entry level gear is things like oh I dunno, the Armstech blaster pistol called "Gamble" or "Two-Fingers Revenge". Are you realling going to tell me those are better than what you get from tokens/commendations as a result of doing HMs/Ops? Mind you, we're talking non-crit, just so you don't get confused.

not putting words in your mouth at all. you stated that crafted gear was nothing but starter gear when multiple pieces are far better than raid gear. comparing very poorly itemized items (especially weapons, which is being rectified in 1.2) to much higher level items the higher level items are going to be better through sheer item budget. compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.

Well for every person who has "all they need" there's a equal amount who have tried and lost the roll as well. Doesn't mean squat. Moving on, those people who don't have the gear to pull their weight in HMs/Ops could at least BUY the BCAs instead of having to resort to being carried, which many will obviously refuse to do.

as described above gear is not an excuse. alloys arent used to make anything that should be considered "starter". there is zero reason to be carried through any normal mode op or hm flashpoint other than your own general ignorance.

WoW mentality..you seriously don't know? Seriously? /facepalm. It's the obsession with "best in slot" for everything. And it's beyond those people who min/max...there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion..but when you obsess over min/maxing to a point you surpass it...well...I saw that kind of mentality in largest degree in WoW.

perhaps you personally did encounter that first in wow, but its been around much longer than wow.

Sounds good..but so do politicians. Having been in Rift since beta, then I'm going to assume you came into Rift late. Insofar as crafted gear goes, literally everything a rogue would wear required one, including a bow/gun if you chose to use one. When I left Rift, my primary character was a Marksman/Saboteur/Ranger, and quite literally every article I wore required them in order to craft the high end pieces.

then you were doing it very wrong. in terms of crafted gear you only needed 6, 8 if you actually played melee. 4 of which went to rings. also, by chance when did you stop playing because that spec combo has never been anywhere close to optimal. i personally started in beta 5, messed around a bit with beta 6, then started with first day of head start on molinar. when it died my guild moved over to byriel. im sorry that you chose to be ignorant on game and gear mechanics in rift but ignorance has never been an excuse.

Oh I have, you just evade, dodge and duck better than Atom. Sticking your head in the sand to the reality of the situation won't make it go away. As I said before, the BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would give alot of people the chance to actually step up and become part of that segment of the community doing HMs/Ops.

That is of course, unless you are of the mind that you don't want more people doing HMs/Ops....

you have yet to show how this would actually increase the pop for those. the gear alloys are used for arent required in the slightest for the content they drop from. infact 140 level gear actually trivializes the content to a high degree.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 04:48 PM
You are correct in your assumption that I'm referring to sandbox MMOs, but I don't understand why you believe this makes a difference.

You mention "free floating raid level loot," but I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'm assuming you're concerned there would be more raid level loot floating around. If so, I disagree, because there's no reason to assume the total amount of raid gear would increase.

For example, if it takes an average of three raids to get one piece of gear, and if a player named Bob has enough time to run 12 raids a month, then he will obtain, on average, four pieces of gear a month. What does it matter if Bob equips all of that gear on one of his characters or if he splits the gear between two of his characters? It's still the same amount of gear.

thats making the assumption that he is actually equipping said gear. you want it open so it can be sold, sending it into the general pop is really pretty terrible. look at eq2 it suffered horribly from gear inflation for that very reason.

as to equipping "alts" im of the opinion that if you want gear on that toon, then you should be playing that toon. if its all bop then why shouldnt i need on everything? there is complaints already about people "ninjaing" loot for their companions, and they are nowhere near as revered as your own characters.

havok_bloodcraft
02.22.2012, 05:08 PM
I've always thought MMO raid drops should be BoE. If I earned an item by participating in a raid, why shouldn't I be able to sell the item to another player or mail it to an alt if I chose to do so?

It isn't like making items BoE would reduce raiding; for every raid item received, somebody still had to run the raid. If anything, making items BoE might actually increase raiding, because players who are fully geared would still have a reason to raid.

if they were you would never be allowed in any kind of group ever again because I can tell you're the kind of person who needs on everything for their companions and alts while someone standing right next to you could use that drop to be better right now

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 05:17 PM
thats making the assumption that he is actually equipping said gear. you want it open so it can be sold, sending it into the general pop is really pretty terrible. look at eq2 it suffered horribly from gear inflation for that very reason.
My example was just one possible scenario, but I don't see how your example changes the math. For example, if Bob chose to equip 2 pieces and sell the other 2 pieces, there are still only a total of 4 pieces in existence.

as to equipping "alts" im of the opinion that if you want gear on that toon, then you should be playing that toon. I guess we have different views on this. I view my account as a single entity rather than viewing each character as a separate entity. So if Character_1 on my account earns an item, I see no problem transferring that item to Character_2 on my account, just as I see no problem transferring cash or other items to my alts. In my view, I earned the item and I'm using the item, even if the character who earned the item and the character who equips it are different.

And, yes, I really would not have a problem extending this to characters outside my account. If I earned a raid loot item, why can't I choose to give it to my best friend's character instead of using it myself? Or why can't I choose to sell it instead of equipping it? There would still only be one item. No matter which character actually equips an item, one person ran a raid (or several raids) and one person received a raid loot item.

if its all bop then why shouldnt i need on everything? there is complaints already about people "ninjaing" loot for their companions, and they are nowhere near as revered as your own characters.This is a good point. My suggestion would not work with a need/greed/pass system. Again, we probably differ in our approaches to this, but I've always preferred straight roll/pass systems to need/greed/pass systems--much less drama!

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 05:19 PM
if they were you would never be allowed in any kind of group ever again because I can tell you're the kind of person who needs on everything for their companions and alts while someone standing right next to you could use that drop to be better right nowIs there a reason to bring personal insults into this conversation?

Your assumption is incorrect, by the way. I almost always "pass" on items.

livnthedream
02.22.2012, 05:55 PM
My example was just one possible scenario, but I don't see how your example changes the math. For example, if Bob chose to equip 2 pieces and sell the other 2 pieces, there are still only a total of 4 pieces in existence.

the issue isnt entirely how much is entering the system at what rate, but also the communities outlook on it. those pieces merely entering the system devalues the rest of the available gear based entirely on terms of quality. why buy a crafted 5 when you can buy a raid level 7? those raid level 7s though do disrupt the raid game. raiding is based on many factors, but gear checks have to exist in some form. there are only so many mechanics that can be thought of at any one time, and only so many that can be stuck in any given boss encounter. there is a very fine line between complex and complicated.


I guess we have different views on this. I view my account as a single entity rather than viewing each character as a separate entity. So if Character_1 on my account earns an item, I see no problem transferring that item to Character_2 on my account, just as I see no problem transferring cash or other items to my alts. In my view, I earned the item and I'm using the item, even if the character who earned the item and the character who equips it are different.

And, yes, I really would not have a problem extending this to characters outside my account. If I earned a raid loot item, why can't I choose to give it to my best friend's character instead of using it myself? Or why can't I choose to sell it instead of equipping it? There would still only be one item. No matter which character actually equips an item, one person ran a raid (or several raids) and one person received a raid loot item.

you are entitled to your opinion. personally outside of seed cash (starting fresh sucks in pretty much every game) i keep my characters self sufficient. but hey, thats how i roll. i think the real disconnect is the idea that "i" earned that piece of loot, when in reality you did it in a team. this is usually the case when doing things with pugs and such. generally in any solid guild you will have been rewarded loot yes, but its usually to help the group get stronger. getting stronger means being able to take on bigger and better challenges aswell as getting through existing challenges faster. taking that piece and selling it, or sending it to a different character isnt helping the group in the slightest. usually when you get to the point of actually selling loot as a guild its in terms of having everything on farm and finishing sets etc getting ready for the next tier.

This is a good point. My suggestion would not work with a need/greed/pass system. Again, we probably differ in our approaches to this, but I've always preferred straight roll/pass systems to need/greed/pass systems--much less drama!

maybe, but if all loot is boe there is basically never a reason not to pass. if there isnt an alt, friend, guildmate, begger etc who needs it then there is always selling it, whether its open bidding or a vendor. at that point all loot should just be auto assigned.

Walking-Carpet
02.22.2012, 06:21 PM
the issue isnt entirely how much is entering the system at what rate, but also the communities outlook on it. those pieces merely entering the system devalues the rest of the available gear based entirely on terms of quality. why buy a crafted 5 when you can buy a raid level 7? those raid level 7s though do disrupt the raid game. raiding is based on many factors, but gear checks have to exist in some form. there are only so many mechanics that can be thought of at any one time, and only so many that can be stuck in any given boss encounter. there is a very fine line between complex and complicated.

You make a good point on the valuation issue. I don't think I understand the point you're trying to make about disrupting the raid game. Could you please elucidate?

you are entitled to your opinion. personally outside of seed cash (starting fresh sucks in pretty much every game) i keep my characters self sufficient. but hey, thats how i roll. i think the real disconnect is the idea that "i" earned that piece of loot, when in reality you did it in a team. this is usually the case when doing things with pugs and such. generally in any solid guild you will have been rewarded loot yes, but its usually to help the group get stronger. getting stronger means being able to take on bigger and better challenges aswell as getting through existing challenges faster. taking that piece and selling it, or sending it to a different character isnt helping the group in the slightest. usually when you get to the point of actually selling loot as a guild its in terms of having everything on farm and finishing sets etc getting ready for the next tier.

When I wrote that I earned an item, I did not mean to imply that raid loot isn't earned by a team. It clearly is. I meant that I had earned my share of the raid loot. If my share was an item, then I earned that item.

Your point about raiding guilds still progressing through the raid content is a good one. You're right; I was thinking more about PUGs and about raiding guilds who are on farm status when I made my post. If raid items were BoE, though, couldn't raiding guilds just establish internal rules governing the division of loot, to make certain that loot is used in a way that benefits the guild as a whole?


maybe, but if all loot is boe there is basically never a reason not to pass. if there isnt an alt, friend, guildmate, begger etc who needs it then there is always selling it, whether its open bidding or a vendor. at that point all loot should just be auto assigned.

I agree, if all loot were BoE, there would generally be little reason to pass. I wouldn't have a problem with loot being auto-assigned either, as long as it was all BoE. Raid members could then engage in whatever negotiation they see fit to exchange items amongst themselves.

Raeln
02.23.2012, 09:45 AM
not really. to put it simply raiding requires gear progression. if for no other reason than basic encounter design. gear checks alone are required to add variety, and as pve stats grow there reaches a point where pvp stats must also change or pve stats will outscale it. adding similer stats so easily soloable content trivializes raid content to such an extent that it must be badly itemized for raiding (magical stat). trying to say that your "solo" experience isnt easy btw is a logical fallacy. making an encounter hard for one playstyle inevitably leads it to be easy for another, even assuming all of them are specifically crafted for each ac. the class quests for inquisitor for example are much harder for assassins than for sorcerers.

Do not mistake "the way it has been done" as the only model that will work.

As for PvP <-> PvE gear - there is no reason that there must be a difference in gear. To create a difference in the gear only leads to segment the player population into "those that PvP" and "those that PvE". Most players will not have the time to invest into having gear good enough to do both. Again, talent specs and combat mechanics should do the necessary adjustments to make PvP viable, regardless the gear.

Reducing all player to player damage and healing is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

Creating a bunch of new gear for each class loaded with a PvP-only stat every content patch is lot of work. Especially when there is no reason why there has to be distinct PvP gear and distinct PvE gear.


you started off quoting someone and complaining that bop mats do nothing but favor elitists, i personally would call that a whine.

Call it what you want. BCA's should be BoE.

Crafting materials should never be BoP.

Yes, I said never. There is never a valid scenario for a crafting material to be BoP unless they want to move to a system where set gear is crafted and the final ingredient is the "token" that would have been spent at the vendor.

Raeln
02.23.2012, 09:48 AM
I've always thought MMO raid drops should be BoE. If I earned an item by participating in a raid, why shouldn't I be able to sell the item to another player or mail it to an alt if I chose to do so?

It isn't like making items BoE would reduce raiding; for every raid item received, somebody still had to run the raid. If anything, making items BoE might actually increase raiding, because players who are fully geared would still have a reason to raid.

I'm of the same opinion that you are. I think raid gear (including tokens) being BoE would bolster the economy greatly. As it is now, eventually, guilds will just sell spots in their hardmode raids instead and the same thing will be accomplished in a smaller scale.

BoP was a failed idea that began back in EQ1 to force people into doing the content. Unfortunately, no MMO designer has been innovative enough to try to break that specific mold yet. We can hope. Moddable gear is certainly a step in that direction.

Raeln
02.23.2012, 09:50 AM
You shouldn't be able to craft items that are better than what drops in nightmare mode raids(crit crafted rakata bracers/belt) without even stepping into a hm fp. If bca's were boe you could actually have better than nightmare gear sitting in your bags waiting for you to hit level 50 since you can level your crew skill to max well before hitting lvl 50. That simply should not be possible, and if you don't agree then mmo's are probably not a game genre you should be playing.

Nightmare mode should not drop gear that is more powerful in the first place.

They should drop prestige items (special mounts, titles and possibly moddable gear that looks unique).

Gwal
02.23.2012, 09:53 AM
No. Only a scrub would suggest what the OP wants.

L2P hard modes.

vonMannock
02.23.2012, 10:02 AM
Easy solution: all items can be crafted. Materials can be bought (we have crew skill vendors), searched (missions) and collected (by skill or pick from bosses).

No more exotic materials, no more different stuff only search, research, money and luck to get nice Pv... nah, only player stuff.

My two cents.

ScarletBlaze
02.23.2012, 10:12 AM
The Biometric Crystal is not just something BioChemists need. I know that even cybernectics need it as well as Synweaving.

I am going to guess the other two do as well. There is no harm in making those crystals and those items BOE instead of BOP.

There are people who dont have the time due to r/l responsibllities to run those operations not to mention some will not group with PUG because of some of the people in those groups.

A friend will not group with people she doesn't know because of the constant yelling and screaming at someone. Since when is that fun for someone to become part of a group like that, it's not.

BOE will also make the market more stable. Sure you will say everyone will want to sell them for an high amount but that is not true. If only one person is selling the crystals or the items then yes it will be high but when you get more people able to craft thins like the Rakata stuff and they are more abundant on the market the price will reflect that.

That will give people a real reason to craft and sell things. Sure you may not like to craft so do the operation and get the crystals and if you don't need them then sell them to someone who does.

There are some that love to craft and they would like the opportunity just to make things. It doesn't harm anyone if things on BOE instead of BOP.

Just like the vehicles in cybernectics, why have those BOP doesn't make sense. I know the cybernectics would like the opportunity to make those and sell them.

It can be a win/win situation for everyone involved. For the pvp and pve players they get what they want and for the crafters they can just enjoy crafting.

This game should be fun for everyone, pvp players, pve players, rp players, and crafters. It is made up of different people.


Note Off topic: It would also be nice if they could add color palettes for armor instead of making everything one color. (my opinion)

Gwal
02.23.2012, 10:21 AM
The Biometric Crystal is not just something BioChemists need. I know that even cybernectics need it as well as Synweaving.

I am going to guess the other two do as well. There is no harm in making those crystals and those items BOE instead of BOP.

There are people who dont have the time due to r/l responsibllities to run those operations not to mention some will not group with PUG because of some of the people in those groups.

A friend will not group with people she doesn't know because of the constant yelling and screaming at someone. Since when is that fun for someone to become part of a group like that, it's not.

BOE will also make the market more stable. Sure you will say everyone will want to sell them for an high amount but that is not true. If only one person is selling the crystals or the items then yes it will be high but when you get more people able to craft thins like the Rakata stuff and they are more abundant on the market the price will reflect that.

That will give people a real reason to craft and sell things. Sure you may not like to craft so do the operation and get the crystals and if you don't need them then sell them to someone who does.

There are some that love to craft and they would like the opportunity just to make things. It doesn't harm anyone if things on BOE instead of BOP.

Just like the vehicles in cybernectics, why have those BOP doesn't make sense. I know the cybernectics would like the opportunity to make those and sell them.

It can be a win/win situation for everyone involved. For the pvp and pve players they get what they want and for the crafters they can just enjoy crafting.

This game should be fun for everyone, pvp players, pve players, rp players, and crafters. It is made up of different people.
Post flagged for being completely devoid of personal attacks and WoW references.

ScarletBlaze
02.23.2012, 10:49 AM
Post flagged for being completely devoid of personal attacks and WoW references.

....:)

Raeln
02.23.2012, 11:54 AM
Post flagged for being completely devoid of personal attacks and WoW references.

Oh now that is funny.

Well played, sir. Well played.

SliggXx
02.23.2012, 12:26 PM
Bioware went out of its way to ensure that one could operate independent of PvE concerns if one was a PvP player. So much so that they created PvP gear tiers comparable to PvE gear tiers. It only makes sense to make the craftable materials obtainable through means other than PvE.

Evironrage
02.23.2012, 12:28 PM
I would sign that petition.

GnatB
02.23.2012, 01:01 PM
BoP was a failed idea that began back in EQ1 to force people into doing the content. Unfortunately, no MMO designer has been innovative enough to try to break that specific mold yet. We can hope. Moddable gear is certainly a step in that direction.

I thought BoP started with WoW, and then in later expansions EQ1 adopted it? One of the things I liked about EQ was there basically were no restrictions on what you could use if you had the ability/money to get it. I was primarily a crafter. Don't think I ever got above lvl 20... but had some of the best gear in the game.


Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I'm thinking Bind on Equip....

Battilea
02.23.2012, 01:03 PM
I thought BoP started with WoW, and then in later expansions EQ1 adopted it? One of the things I liked about EQ was there basically were no restrictions on what you could use if you had the ability/money to get it. I was primarily a crafter. Don't think I ever got above lvl 20... but had some of the best gear in the game.


Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I'm thinking Bind on Equip....

Pretty sure EQ had it before RoK even, or at least around that time. Due to people twinking their alts with stuff from the Plane of Fear. Possibly even sooner for things like J-boots?

Zekeiele
02.23.2012, 01:10 PM
Pretty sure EQ had it before RoK even, or at least around that time. Due to people twinking their alts with stuff from the Plane of Fear. Possibly even sooner for things like J-boots?

It was mostly the Jboot twinkers that started it and FBSS PGT etc.


*edit*
If I remember right they were called "lore items"

ScarletBlaze
02.23.2012, 03:06 PM
It was mostly the Jboot twinkers that started it and FBSS PGT etc.


*edit*
If I remember right they were called "lore items"

We had a few items on SWG that were no trade at the beginning but they started slowing removing those restrictions on the items even the TCG card game loot items were eventually able to be traded.

GnatB
02.23.2012, 04:09 PM
It was mostly the Jboot twinkers that started it and FBSS PGT etc.


*edit*
If I remember right they were called "lore items"

"Lore" meant you could only have 1 of 'em in inventory at a time.

I do remember quest parts being No Drop, but I don't remember the actual rewards (or equipment mob drops) being No Drop.

'Course, I stopped playing around PoP, (though reading a bit, some of the features of the Legacy of Ykesha expansion seem vaguely familiar) which apparently was ~2 years before WoW. For some reason I could have *sworn* that my time playing EQ overlapped the release of WoW... (I could have also sworn I played it for longer than 3 years...)

Raeln
02.24.2012, 08:30 AM
I thought BoP started with WoW, and then in later expansions EQ1 adopted it? One of the things I liked about EQ was there basically were no restrictions on what you could use if you had the ability/money to get it. I was primarily a crafter. Don't think I ever got above lvl 20... but had some of the best gear in the game.


Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I'm thinking Bind on Equip....

I played EQ1 when they began introducing BoP, BoE and level scaling gear. The level scaling gear felt very weird at the time.

I've always thought that BoP gear was harsh to the player - I earned the gear, why can't I at least send it to an alt when my main is finished with it? WoW's BoA gear was a step in the right direction there, but I'd just rather there not be BoP gear at all and let it all flow through the player market.

Yes, I actually do believe that if a raider wants to sell the gear he won in last nights raid to a stranger on the market, he should be allowed to. The ability to this would do a great deal for limiting elitist mentalities across the board.

Speaking of selling gear, I remember my raiding guild in EQ1 having rules specifically addressing that. I don't think we ever had to do it, but I do remember some guilds kicking members that sold their raid loot instead of using it.

Raeln
02.24.2012, 08:35 AM
"Lore" meant you could only have 1 of 'em in inventory at a time.

I do remember quest parts being No Drop, but I don't remember the actual rewards (or equipment mob drops) being No Drop.

'Course, I stopped playing around PoP, (though reading a bit, some of the features of the Legacy of Ykesha expansion seem vaguely familiar) which apparently was ~2 years before WoW. For some reason I could have *sworn* that my time playing EQ overlapped the release of WoW... (I could have also sworn I played it for longer than 3 years...)

A lot of higher end PoP gear was "BoP", though I forget exactly what term they used for that - maybe it was just a NO DROP flag. Been too many years now.

In hindsight, if all gear was still BoE - I don't think we would need point (commendation) systems to ensure we get the drops that we need to progress. We could buy/trade/sell - emphasis on "trade", to get what we need. It's very difficult to rationalize why I cannot give my old piece of gear to my friend's character when he is standing there - not 5 feet from my character. Very difficult.

VKemp
02.24.2012, 01:31 PM
I just read up to the carebear thing. Whom are you calling a carebear? your the one wanting stuff made easier for you. Seems to me you might be the carebear here.

Then add a rating achievement requirement.

I was bored out of my mind just trying out Eternity Vault hard mode last night.

Fact: High end PvP is more difficult than any PvE. Period. If you disagree, you aren't good enough to face highly-rated opponents, yet you can PvE--So you make my point.

The game doesn't have rated PvP yet, so give us the mat through farm or whatever else. There's no reason to require me to do this horribly boring PvE with the newb carebears to get a mat for PvP.

I don't have a problem doing MORE challenging content for the mat. I just want access to the mat.

GnatB
02.24.2012, 01:37 PM
Fact: High end PvP is more difficult than any PvE. Period. If you disagree, you aren't good enough to face highly-rated opponents, yet you can PvE--So you make my point.

Maybe in this game. It's trivially easy to design/implement PvE that is far more difficult than any PvP could possibly be. Heck, badly designed PvE trends towards the completely unwinnable. PvP is never that difficult.

Ralthor
02.24.2012, 01:46 PM
Fact: High end PvP is more difficult than any PvE. Period. If you disagree, you aren't good enough to face highly-rated opponents

Circular reasoning is circular.

oh and I lolled. :)

Zekeiele
02.24.2012, 02:21 PM
Since 99% of the PVPers only want the stupid *********** thing for grenades or stims maybe Bio can make a PVP version of them that only works in the zones/Ilum and doesn't need the PVE garbage.

Sure I'll eventually get my guild to slog our PVP hybrid builds and PVP equiped group to stumble through something we suck at and dont care to learn...doesn't mean it's not ********.

Lundorff
02.24.2012, 03:44 PM
<----- another one just hitting 400 and realizing that I need to Group-PVE-farm just to use the profession properly. Terrible crafting design. Really. I don't mind it being hard to obtain, but forcing people into groups for a CHANCE is just fubar.

I guess this just adds to the "reason to unsub"-pile growing in the corner. Meh.

Elmuerto
03.02.2012, 05:08 PM
Agree.

I got excited about crafting for the first time in an mmo due to Crew skills - I have not done that before as I'm a pvper. Now I hit 400 and cannot do anything without (imo only) lame repetitious pve for drops. Sorry I pay as much as anyone else and bring PvP play to this game, give us an alternative to obtain these items, even availability to sell. It would seem devs play no other games nor have experience enough to know this bind on these items makes crafting defunct for pvpers..or...sniffle..maybe we're not wanted.

Ka-tel
03.02.2012, 11:22 PM
I'm with the OP. Some people don't LIKE to do PVE. Can I? Yes, but with the ridiculously long FP's in this game I'm not the slightest bit interested. And I shouldn't be gimped in PVP because other's there play PVE and get stuff not available to PVP.

If you can't get the PVE mats from PVP, give us a similar/equivalent version from PVP. Say... Battlemaster Might Stim?

Edit: Idea, let the BCA mat be a rare drop from BM Bags? That makes it still not "easy mode" to pick up but gives PVPers a shot at getting it as well as PVEers.

You don't like to do PVE but you like PVE rewards. lololool. Funny how that works!

Ka-tel
03.02.2012, 11:26 PM
Agree.

I got excited about crafting for the first time in an mmo due to Crew skills - I have not done that before as I'm a pvper. Now I hit 400 and cannot do anything without (imo only) lame repetitious pve for drops. Sorry I pay as much as anyone else and bring PvP play to this game, give us an alternative to obtain these items, even availability to sell. It would seem devs play no other games nor have experience enough to know this bind on these items makes crafting defunct for pvpers..or...sniffle..maybe we're not wanted.

You pay as much as everyone else and you have the same chance and opportunity as everyone else does to go get the PVE drops that you want.
They are PVE rewards. Freakin' deal with it and stop asking for free stuff, which nerfs the game for others.

Ka-tel
03.02.2012, 11:34 PM
The Biometric Crystal is not just something BioChemists need. I know that even cybernectics need it as well as Synweaving.

I am going to guess the other two do as well. There is no harm in making those crystals and those items BOE instead of BOP.

There are people who dont have the time due to r/l responsibllities to run those operations not to mention some will not group with PUG because of some of the people in those groups.

A friend will not group with people she doesn't know because of the constant yelling and screaming at someone. Since when is that fun for someone to become part of a group like that, it's not.

BOE will also make the market more stable. Sure you will say everyone will want to sell them for an high amount but that is not true. If only one person is selling the crystals or the items then yes it will be high but when you get more people able to craft thins like the Rakata stuff and they are more abundant on the market the price will reflect that.

That will give people a real reason to craft and sell things. Sure you may not like to craft so do the operation and get the crystals and if you don't need them then sell them to someone who does.

There are some that love to craft and they would like the opportunity just to make things. It doesn't harm anyone if things on BOE instead of BOP.

Just like the vehicles in cybernectics, why have those BOP doesn't make sense. I know the cybernectics would like the opportunity to make those and sell them.

It can be a win/win situation for everyone involved. For the pvp and pve players they get what they want and for the crafters they can just enjoy crafting.

This game should be fun for everyone, pvp players, pve players, rp players, and crafters. It is made up of different people.


Note Off topic: It would also be nice if they could add color palettes for armor instead of making everything one color. (my opinion)



Want me to explain why making them BoE will negatively impact me as a PVEer?

1) Right now if you want the item you have to run the instance yourself. That means there are more people running instances, which means more groups running them and thus, makes it easier to fill groups--as opposed to sitting around trying to fill groups.

If they are made tradeable, the people that would rather buy them will just buy them and there will be less people running the flashpoints, which for me is a bad thing.


2) If they are made tradeable, people who don't actually need them will start rolling on them just so they can sell them. That makes it less likely that I will get them each time I run a Hard Mode instance.


It DOES harm me if they are tradeable. Fact.

Zaragosa
03.02.2012, 11:38 PM
Blah, blah, blah...

Every whine, complaint, cry - I see in every mmo is always from PvPers. If you don't want to PvE than do without PvE drops, including items crafted from.

Put it this way, if all you do is PvP, than you should/must be very good at it. Than you shouldn't have any need for items/crafted items, with intention of PvE usage.

Have a good day, stop your PvP cry babying.

Abydon
03.03.2012, 12:09 AM
No it's not even close to valid. Sorry, but that analogy is still a complete failure. And please show me verbatim, where I stated I don't want to so I shouldn't have to. And after you fail to do so, please note that you need to stop putting words in my mouth. If I feel like saying something, I'll do so, please and thank you.

What I DID say was that people should not be forced into something they don't want to do. And there are quite a few reasons why a person may not want to. Outside of the arbitrary dislike of FPs/Ops/HMs, there's also the driving issue that some people may simply not have the gear to pull their weight in a HM/Op. And gaspity-gasp some people know that, and do not want to put themselves in a position where people can potentially berate them for not doing their share of the teamwork involved. Alternatively, it can be because a person simply doesn't want to fail their team. Do some checking..ask around how many real, dedicated healers are impacted when they let a member of their team die. That's the very selfsame concept I'm attempting to describe to you now.


In summary, yes, quite a definite rebuttal, and no words in my mouth please,



See there you go again...making wild asusmptions. In that one quote you use the word "crit" 4 times...crit crafted this, crift crafted that, crit crit crit crit. Who said anything about crit crafted anything? I surely didn't. Are you attempting to put words in my mouth again? Entry level gear is things like oh I dunno, the Armstech blaster pistol called "Gamble" or "Two-Fingers Revenge". Are you realling going to tell me those are better than what you get from tokens/commendations as a result of doing HMs/Ops? Mind you, we're talking non-crit, just so you don't get confused.



Well for every person who has "all they need" there's a equal amount who have tried and lost the roll as well. Doesn't mean squat. Moving on, those people who don't have the gear to pull their weight in HMs/Ops could at least BUY the BCAs instead of having to resort to being carried, which many will obviously refuse to do.

WoW mentality..you seriously don't know? Seriously? /facepalm. It's the obsession with "best in slot" for everything. And it's beyond those people who min/max...there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion..but when you obsess over min/maxing to a point you surpass it...well...I saw that kind of mentality in largest degree in WoW.



Sounds good..but so do politicians. Having been in Rift since beta, then I'm going to assume you came into Rift late. Insofar as crafted gear goes, literally everything a rogue would wear required one, including a bow/gun if you chose to use one. When I left Rift, my primary character was a Marksman/Saboteur/Ranger, and quite literally every article I wore required them in order to craft the high end pieces.



Oh I have, you just evade, dodge and duck better than Atom. Sticking your head in the sand to the reality of the situation won't make it go away. As I said before, the BCAs need to be changed from BoP to BoE. Doing so would give alot of people the chance to actually step up and become part of that segment of the community doing HMs/Ops.

That is of course, unless you are of the mind that you don't want more people doing HMs/Ops....

I don't know why you people are SO hung up on gear! If you play your character correctly you should be doing Heroics and regular quests that sometimes give out orange, moddable gear. Then if you are doing questing you'll more than likely end up with just enough commendations and credits to mod out all the orange gear so that you CAN handle a HM. It's actually stair stepped for those who need it to be. Do NM lvl 50 FPs and you'll get purple tier 1 gear. Not necessarily Tionese but energized gear or base purple tier 1's that are more than sufficient for HMs IF you need to be over geared for a HM. The extra creds you'll get on Corellia and Ilum quests will more than pay for purple lvl 49 mods which will suffice until you can obtain the daily armor mods and hilts/barrels from Ilum. Then the most important part...and I'm guessing you lack in this department as you are complaining about needing gear to survive, is SKILL! Be pro. Man up. Get in there and make mistakes. Do Nm to learn the fights then do HMs when you are comfortable. There is NO excuse for "I acn't do it without gear so I need my BoEs cuz I'm FAIL!" If you get into a group that does berate you for making a mistake its a fail group to begin with. People make mistakes and pros learn and move on. Find a group of people to run with and start a static group to obtain the Biometric Alloys ya need. It's not difficult. The orange items people keep talking about that are lvl 400 skill and only lvl 48...do you people NOT realize these are more for the designs like the saber shells themselves? My purple saber I got from a HM is better only by the innate hilt attached to it. My orange saber I love the design odf and has better stats with my crafted purple 49 and daily 50 mods, but my base damage for the saber is less due to the hilt that isn't extractable. But the sabers are BOE so I can make one for an upcoming alt or for others in my guild who prefer a certain saber style that can only be crafted. Those sabers aren't locked to those mods you make it with either. You can fully upgrade them. So saying they are useless is just pure laziness and your BOP/BOE argument invalidates itself here. The only thing about em special is the shell. The mods are what will make it shine. Same with ALL orange gear. and with the new crit crafted oranges we'll be able to make it only increases the desirability and functionality of such undergeared players as yourself.When you stop compaining about being under geared as an excuse not to do HMs you'll find you go a lot further in this game.You limit yourself only!
You are basically saying you need the BCA's BOE because you can't get pro enough to get a decent group or are afraid of utter failure. If you still fail after being all purple mods at 50 in full set of orange gear and weapon upgraded to level then you should seriously just give up. No amount of gear will help you. You should go back to Nintendo and put in the infinite lives cheat code and save the Princess from Khoopa King.

Abydon
03.03.2012, 12:12 AM
Agree.

I got excited about crafting for the first time in an mmo due to Crew skills - I have not done that before as I'm a pvper. Now I hit 400 and cannot do anything without (imo only) lame repetitious pve for drops. Sorry I pay as much as anyone else and bring PvP play to this game, give us an alternative to obtain these items, even availability to sell. It would seem devs play no other games nor have experience enough to know this bind on these items makes crafting defunct for pvpers..or...sniffle..maybe we're not wanted.

Well then...I want BattleMaster bags for PvE content as quest rewards. Even trade. You want a PvE item...I want the BattleMaster set. Problem is that is I want the BM set I'll queue up for PvP where you come here to complain you want PvE items for PvP points. 2+2 does not equal 10. You have to do PvE content to get PvE rewards and vice versa...deal with it or go home.

Prossy
03.03.2012, 12:43 AM
I'm not looking to hear if any diehard carebear tells me that my idea is bad for x reason, because it doesn't pertain to you and you should have no say in it. I'm also not looking to hear "TOR is a story driven PvE game with a PvP minigame" because I don't care and it doesn't matter how you play the game, it matters at least in the business sense that Bioware can accommodate the 2 biggest customers who the game is advertised for, PvEers and PvPers.

There is no reason to limit it to PvE because frankly you should realize not everyone wants to PvE. And don't tell me that whether you agree it should be more available I should do it anyway. I'm not sinking time without a guarantee of getting one, having to form a group and run through the instance in PvP gear and a PvP spec.



Luv it how PvPers got the nerve to call PvE'ers carebears when everytime i come on forums i see them complaining how every other class they don't play are OP and their class they play don't do enough dps, I belive the Sage's/sorc's are going to have a big Nerf in an upcoming patch because of PvP which will no doubt screw over the PvE'ers. If anything between the PvPer's and the PvE'ers that the ones who shall be called carebears is PvPer's since you guys have been the most cared after

Back to your topic the alloy's are really simple to get, it's a PVE needed for PVE items so naturally you need to do pve for them, sinnce you pvpers can get columi and rakata quality items way way easier then us PvE'ers doing some simple flashpoints shouldn't be a problem for ya. This is a PvE game so natually if you want something it's more then likely you need to do some PvE to earn it, i'm sorry you feel differently but that's more then likely due to Blizzard Coddling you pvper's ggiving into everything you wanted over in WoW

LiquidRavenS
03.03.2012, 01:37 AM
I would love Tionese crystals being used to purchase Biometric Cyrstal Alloy

havok_bloodcraft
03.03.2012, 06:48 AM
Use the 48 reusables and deal with it if another guy has the rakata version then he did something to get it that you aren't willing to do. I would like to have rakata gear without having to run ops but not happening. I would like to have BM gear without having to pvp but not happening. And if you can't stomach 45 minutes in hard mode black talon to get one of these I have no sympathy for you. They are not hard to get. I just hope you are on a pvp server because if you are the only guy running without rakata reusables then you are doing something wrong because everyone else can figure it out. Seriously if you cannot hack it in pvp with the 48 reusables then the rakata ones aren't going to help L2P or find another pvp environment because there is no invincible stim or 1 shot adrenal.

God I am so tired of all the pvp whining about wanting everything easier.

Reposted for Easy Reading

Abydon
03.03.2012, 06:52 AM
Use the 48 reusables and deal with it if another guy has the rakata version then he did something to get it that you aren't willing to do. I would like to have rakata gear without having to run ops but not happening. I would like to have BM gear without having to pvp but not happening. And if you can't stomach 45 minutes in hard mode black talon to get one of these I have no sympathy for you. They are not hard to get. I just hope you are on a pvp server because if you are the only guy running without rakata reusables then you are doing something wrong because everyone else can figure it out. Seriously if you cannot hack it in pvp with the 48 reusables then the rakata ones aren't going to help L2P or find another pvp environment because there is no invincible stim or 1 shot adrenal.

God I am so tired of all the pvp whining about wanting everything easier.

Reposted for Easy Reading

yet on the other thread you wanted to take a crafting skill to 400, dump it, then still reap the benefits. Ain't that easy mode rather than having to work for something you easily dispatched with a click? Make up your mind...easy or not? Can't have it both ways!

havok_bloodcraft
03.03.2012, 07:04 AM
yet on the other thread you wanted to take a crafting skill to 400, dump it, then still reap the benefits. Ain't that easy mode rather than having to work for something you easily dispatched with a click? Make up your mind...easy or not? Can't have it both ways!

What other thread? Where is this supposed post of mine? I have a Long list of posts opposing the kind of post you describe. most recently

You are all a disease I wish they would make it so when you max a skill to 400 it becomes permanent for the life of the character.

from biochem only good crafting?

Maybe if people actually acted properly instead just deciding that biochem is the only option and rushing into it then expecting "the only worthwhile option" to give them free stuff for no effort.

Also the post you were quoting is me reposting my own post.

macnernie
03.05.2012, 01:33 PM
I just cancelled my account because of this BS.

I want to obtain a few pieces of this for PVP purposes but the PVE snobs wont let me play in their reindeer games because I dont have the proper toys to play along.

So I take my ball and go home. (And my 90 day recurring subscription with me)

I still have 43 days left. Either Bioware can make it so I can obtain this piece without having to PVE to death by making it sellable. (Ill pay 1 mil for a piece). They can make it obtainable in PVP bags, or expensive to buy like those pricey mounts. ANYTHING other than this nonsense.

Just spent an hour being wiped continually in HM flashpoint because it was 3 assasssins 1 Merc and apparently it wasnt the lack of DPS in the group that caused this. It was because I have full Champ PVP gear. Thats why we wiped. (Sarcasm off)

havok_bloodcraft
03.08.2012, 08:19 AM
I just cancelled my account because of this BS.

I want to obtain a few pieces of this for PVP purposes but the PVE snobs wont let me play in their reindeer games because I dont have the proper toys to play along.

So I take my ball and go home. (And my 90 day recurring subscription with me)

I still have 43 days left. Either Bioware can make it so I can obtain this piece without having to PVE to death by making it sellable. (Ill pay 1 mil for a piece). They can make it obtainable in PVP bags, or expensive to buy like those pricey mounts. ANYTHING other than this nonsense.

Just spent an hour being wiped continually in HM flashpoint because it was 3 assasssins 1 Merc and apparently it wasnt the lack of DPS in the group that caused this. It was because I have full Champ PVP gear. Thats why we wiped. (Sarcasm off)

Well the current idea seems to be that they are making them tradeable in the future but if you took your ball home already nobody will miss you.

Khadroth
03.08.2012, 08:50 AM
I just cancelled my account because of this BS.

I want to obtain a few pieces of this for PVP purposes but the PVE snobs wont let me play in their reindeer games because I dont have the proper toys to play along.

So I take my ball and go home. (And my 90 day recurring subscription with me)

I still have 43 days left. Either Bioware can make it so I can obtain this piece without having to PVE to death by making it sellable. (Ill pay 1 mil for a piece). They can make it obtainable in PVP bags, or expensive to buy like those pricey mounts. ANYTHING other than this nonsense.

Just spent an hour being wiped continually in HM flashpoint because it was 3 assasssins 1 Merc and apparently it wasnt the lack of DPS in the group that caused this. It was because I have full Champ PVP gear. Thats why we wiped. (Sarcasm off)

No that wouldn't be the reason you wiped. I raided for quite a while early on in nothing but champ gear, then went right to rakata. If you guys were wiping it's either because:

A.) You're doing it wrong, get a better strat.
B.) The other players were undergeared.
C.) One or more of you are that bad at the game.

tegororn
03.11.2012, 02:35 PM
So its probably going to be BoE or some kinda tradable as the devs stated in Guild Summit.

Good one BW.